For those unfamiliar, GrapheneOS is a privacy and security enhanced custom ROM endorsed by Snowden. Despite these big names, plenty of people give it backlash
Even @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml gives it backlash despite being a moderator of Lemmy’s biggest privacy community. A quote here: “grapheneOS trolls are downvoting every single post and comment of mine, and committing vote manipulation on Lemmy. They are using 5-6 accounts.” That was in response to downvotes on a comment posted in the c/WorldNews community, which is entirely unrelated to technology.
One of the reasons is that GrapheneOS can only be installed on Google Pixels due to security compatibility, which makes complete sense considering Android should be most compatible with Google’s own devices. GrapheneOS even lists the exact reasons they chose Pixels, and encourage people to step up and manufacture a different supported device.
One year ago, Louis Rossmann posted this video outlining his reasons for deleting GrapheneOS. Mainly, he had multiple bad experiences with Daniel Micay (the founder and main developer of GrapheneOS) which put his distrust in the GrapheneOS project. Since then, he has stepped down and will no longer be actively contributing to the project.
So, I am here to learn why exactly people still do not like GrapheneOS.
Honestly, I think you summed up the biggest issues. As much as I look forward to getting a Pixel for my next phone solely for GrapheneOS, it’s understandable for people looking to degoogle to not want to buy a Google phone. The developer I think is the bigger issue. Despite having since stepped down, his behavior went unchecked for long enough to make quite a bad reputation and leave a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths. While recovering from that will simply take time, I have wondered why they haven’t taken the opportunity to come out with a Graphene-lite for non-Pixels. Something like CarbonOS as secure as possible sans Google hardware. Could easily overtake Calyx/Lineage.
I have wondered why they haven’t taken the opportunity to come out with a Graphene-lite for non-Pixels
The issue I see is simply a lack of developers to do so. Trying to split the team between two mostly different projects would most likely cripple both.
They tell you why right on their website. They dev for Pixels because it’s a stable platform with a predictable future.
If you’re not going to listen to the devs, I don’t know what to say.
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I think the issue is Play Integrity/SafetyNet. If you can’t lock the bootloader, you can’t get it without using illegal hacks. GrapheneOS only passes Basic Integrity but that’s just details
The problematic dev never stepped down they still pull the same crazy shenanigans like banning anyone he disagrees with.
Yep, tor me it’s because it requires a Pixel. And specifically poor Pixel battery life.
I value battery life, and every Pixel I check out on gsmarena has an endurance rating < 90h.
For comparison, my current phone’s endurance rating is 113h, and this is why I ended up shopping by chipset. Everything not Snapdragon had poor battery life. (Disclaimer: haven’t looked for a couple of years)
The developer I think is the bigger issue
What did happen?
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Personally is due to the toxicity of their dev and socials team, basically if you ask something, you are wrong and they are right, if you recommend other options, you are wrong and they are right. They have been publicly raging war against cybersecurity content creators that dare question some decisions or do honest reviews (OS Is good but has it’s but scenarios) … Once they get better with their PR relationships most of the hate will go away.
Groups like this need to understand that their PR would do better if they said nothing at all rather than just being an asshole.
See also: CEO of Kagi search who thinks he can browbeat people into agreeing with him. It makes me never want to use Kagi.
Just shut up and let your fucking products speak for themselves. The more you rant about your philosophy to others, the less they actually want to use your products.
I’ve been using grapheneOS and never knew the toxicity. Crazy.
because you NEED a pixel.
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Why is ur comment showing up blank for me?
Because Lemmy.ml mods are morons
How are they blanking a replay to a comment just cos the comment being replied to is on .ml thats cooked is it cos ur banned or cos im banned or both or are they just morons and screwed it up?
I don’t know why it’s blank, but when checking the c/privacy modlog from my instance, I can’t find anything.
But when I go to lemmy.ml and check the modlog from there, I see this:
Thats photographic proof of .ml selectively federating the modlog to do all sorts of dodgy things such as hiding who committed what actions and generally trying to hide mod/admin abuse.
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Bla bla I will just keep the same phone I’ve had for years
Also I don’t care about the form factor of Pixels
It is ironic, but that’s the best you can get in terms of security on Android, which is why GrapheneOS supports nothing else
I don’t think it’s ironic. Google benefits massively from their projects like AOSP or OpenTitan being open source, and they even benefit from projects like GOS doing some heavy lifting for them in developing bug fixes that get integrated upstream.
The fact that their mobile phones are relatively friendly to alternate operating systems is of pretty significant benefit to them.
Google is invested in security research, albeit usually for reasons that don’t benefit users.
Google is a tech giant, which abuses peoples privacy with every click
Their phones enable users to (at least partially) escape that bs
that’s what I found to be ironic
A lot of people here have higher priority for privacy over security. If you wanted maximum security you should be fine with using even apple products, they’re incredibly secure. But privacy- that’s a completely different thing. Hell, even the community is named privacy. The freedom to compromise alleged security features for privacy should be an option for users.
I’m sorry, but that’s just not how security works. Most of the “security” features exist because of patching known vulnerabilities. What this means in real terms: vulnerabilities and how they work are published to the public. There are people who specifically write and sell malware to exploit these known vulnerabilities. This is happening all the time. If you have a permissive security model, you are opening all of your information up to compromise
You cannot reasonably expect privacy on a system that makes major concessions to security. Security is necessary for privacy. The two are not the same thing, but one is needed for the other.
But also… GrapheneOS is in fact a very privacy-friendly operating system. I would consider it the most privacy-friendly in fact.
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For me it is a matter of trust. What does it matter if you’re getting security updates faster than everyone else if you’re getting them Solar Winds? In other words, if you don’t need security against nation-state actors, the highest threat is Google / Apple themselves.
Your logic doesn’t escape me but in point of fact, when we’re talking about GrapheneOS we’re not talking about volunteering usage data to Google. GrapheneOS does a better job of protecting user privacy than any other mobile option I can think of.
The problem I have is treating security and privacy like they’re opposing forces. They’re not. You don’t need to make security concessions to ensure privacy and that line of thinking doesn’t make sense when you examine it.
Genuinely curious: what your privacy metrics (what does this actually mean to you) and what is an organization that you trust?
Not too many unfortunately. I trust Proton bc I am not breaking any Swiss laws, and I know they leak recovery emails so I don’t have one listed, but that’s about it.
To be honest I’m not an expert in this, definitely haven’t achieved de-googled life yet, but someday I dream I will. Even if they are not collecting usage data they’re surely getting metadata
I think that’s a good baseline. Not placing unnecessary trust is definitely a priority. The idea is definitely to remove as much of the need as possible for trust.
You have good goals and they are attainable. I wish you luck.
Yea, my main issue is that because of the price, you’re locked to phones that are either out or almost out of support, or secondhand. Even the last generation’s cheapest model is $300! Though very tempted to try to save that anyway.
Plus they are not officially sold here, so always a bit of a gamble.
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You don’t need to give money to Google, it’s trivial to find a second-hand.
not in my country, they are expensive and unavailable. and you have to be ok with their form factor and features over the other options.
overall needing to have one specific phone can get very restrictive.
Is it a reason to hate the GrapheneOS project? Pixel phones are simply the best Android devices for security. You should hate other phone manufacturers that don’t care at all.
i don’t hate graphene in and of itself, i simply can’t use it. and its not much use to most people when most people don’t own pixels.
we should hate most phone manufacturers because they are pretty much all shitty though.
Sad to see so many people fall for this blatant scheme for buying pixels
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The guy you were replying to is saying “People hate GrapheneOS because it requires a Pixel,” they were not saying “everyone in the world should be using a Pixel” as you seem to have mistaken.
You’re getting very fired up and heated in the comments here… maybe take a break?
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Hey man, nice to see you raising hell again. How’ve you been? Haven’t seen you in a bit.
BTW, I followed most of your guide, and my phone battery is lasting me upwards of 5 hours of screen on time since I applied your secret sauce. Never mind the ridiculously low data usage.
And if anyone here is wondering, @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmygrad.ml and I don’t see eye to eye 100%, and we started our conversations sort of being pricks to one another, until we started to finally get along. He does have some very valid insights and knowledge for privacy and security on Android devices and most with solid evidence, which raises the bar on trust. Having said that, regardless of how you choose to take his posts, I do urge you to at least consider his points. I’ve found them invaluable.
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I welcome the challenge of meeting every kind of people. With you, honestly, it was fun, and from the get-go I was aware that we would just get along at some point.
I’m very sorry to read about your injury man. I’ve been battling my own demons lately, with some very traumatic experiences I went through about 2 years ago. I forgave the people that caused the emotional and mental damage, but just this morning I woke up sweating and hyperventilating at 5am and could not go back to bed. Freaking nightmare of that crap had me relive the situation all over again.
I guess that’s what makes us human. And people here, open your mind to what could be. Yes, this guy comes across as an asshole at first, don’t I know, but once you see beyond that defense wall, not only is he super cool, but a great conversation partner, specially when there are opposite views on each side. Pretty insightful that’s been my experience with him. And yes, he is very passionate about his beliefs, and more people should be like that instead of just following the flow.
I’m still around but, as long as my wife and kids allow me to 🤣
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I followed most of your guide, and my phone battery is lasting me upwards of 5 hours of screen on time since I applied your secret sauce. Never mind the ridiculously low data usage.
Can you please give a link to this guide? Thanks.
Sure, here it is:
Be aware that there are new apps out there that can replace some of the ones suggested here by the OP, but the bottom line remains the same today.
It’s a bit… shorter than I expected, but thanks
It’s likely because the developers are highly opinionated, and this is true even for topics they don’t know very much about. See the entire discussion about implementing battery charge limiting in GrapheneOS. This makes for a lot of friction for people who would like to see more focus on usability in GrapheneOS as opposed to it being purely focused on security.
I stopped reading threads on their forums because the developers are so abrasive even though I still use the rom, because I don’t mind the loss of usability compared to other roms. I can completely understand why there is a lot of negative sentiment around it though.
Wow, Graphene really doesn’t have charging limits?
I assume this is the discussion you referred to, and I think it broke my trust in the project.
Edit: As far as I can tell, many of the frustrating parts of that thread are from random posters and not devs. I’m still annoyed that such a basic feature is considered controversial.
Oh, wow, that dude in the thread is proud in his ignorance.
I use Home Assistant for this BTW 😃
Interesting! I assume it involves a smart plug and an automation script that monitors battery level?
That’s it.
It really does not. I use an external device connected via Bluetooth to achieve this on GrapheneOS, and others use home automation.
Edit: that thread isn’t what I’m referring to. There was a larger one, perhaps on their github, with a link to a blogpost about why charge limiting “isn’t necessary” being cited as the justification for why the rom doesn’t have the feature. Either way, it’s frustrating to read and best ignored.
What a weird situation. I suppose it’s nice those workarounds exist, even if they’re not ideal.
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Even @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml gives it backlash despite being a moderator of Lemmy’s biggest privacy community. A quote here: “grapheneOS trolls are downvoting every single post and comment of mine, and committing vote manipulation on Lemmy. They are using 5-6 accounts.” That was in response to downvotes on a comment posted in the c/WorldNews community, which is entirely unrelated to technology.
It seems to me that you might be confusing things: You say that people hate the OS but share a comment complaining about the community of users/fans, not about the OS.
I have never used GrapheneOS and cannot comment on the OS, but I have seen some users in different communities commenting that GrapheneOS is the only valid alternative OS and discrediting any other OS. It becomes tiring pretty fast.
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Hey there, I’m sorry about this craziness. My comment was not really directed at you, but I was just quoting part of the original post that mentioned you.
I was trying to suggest that OP is confusing criticism of the GrapheneOS community with criticism of the OS. You make a good point and, as I pointed out, you were not criticising the OS, but the community. Not the same thing.
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no way this is real
Oh, it is 🤣
Sorry for the pain. The internet is always harsh and being a moderator can be even more harsh. Please get help if you need it. I and many others would be happy to step in as a mod if you need R&R
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What other phones do you suggest that allow signing the ROM with my own key?
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I did some asking in the matrix prior to buying a google pixel and was pretty much told get a pixel or fuck off. There was one guy who gave actually helpful advice on other is options I had so i think its purely a community thing. Its unfortunate honestly i think any good faith criticism is an asset but unfortunatly the graphene community is too blind to see it that way.
I want criticism of it cos i want a better is that addresses said criticism I don’t see why some people can’t get that. Keep up the good work.
I like grapheneos the product.
The staff is super abrasive and they constantly attack other privacy projects. See the recent attacks on Jonah from privacy guides, or the attacks on calyx, or the bs with rossman that forced micay out of the spotlight.
They need to hire an outside professional to manage their PR. The way they communicate is their biggest flaw.
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There are one or two accounts on Lemmy who seem to show up in every privacy or graphene thread and shit-talk GOS.
I say if there is something wrong with GOS or the code itself, identify it and prove it. The founder may have been “problematic” or whatever, but it doesn’t sound like that person is even associated with the project anymore.
I have personally daily-driven GOS for a year. It has worked well for me. I use a lot of FOSS apps. I use some traditional Play Store apps and avoid logging into Google and I manage permissions closely. I’d say GOS gives you options. Maybe some people would like other customized degoogled OS better, and that is fine. Just… for the love of all that is sacred, don’t use vanilla Googled Android.
I find the criticisms of the founder pretty seriously overblown. My interactions with him have always been positive. He’s on the spectrum and a lot of people engaged in pretty serious abuse toward him and the project he created… so I’ll give him some slack.
I’ve used GrapheneOS for 5 years. It’s good, the project has integrity, and there really isn’t anything that meaningfully compares in meeting its goals. It’s proactive in that they actually do meaningful security research and implement solutions. People who troll on the project are either straight up bad actors or just stupid.
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I just think it is a vessel for proprietary software and doesn’t protect my freedom.
There a certainly worse things to use but I like Lineage OS personally
I don’t understand your comment. Could you explain it a bit more?
TL;DR Lineage OS is fine as it pretty much anything else fossdroid
Is there any truth to the concern that Lineage could be hacked more easily than Graphene OS?
And what about how Graphene OS uses Pixels that have a chip that make brute-forcing hacking a locked device much harder?
Are those real things or just gimmicks? I really don’t know.
It depends on your threat model. However, I am skeptical of flashy security features. I haven’t heard of a case where Graphene saved a journalist or similar.
People who escape doom because of technological prowess don’t usual tell others out of risk of antagonizing an adversary and inviting more conflict.
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Daniel Micay and the GrapheneOS community are all insane shills. They are against FOSS, and feud with: F-Droid, Mozilla, Calyx Institute, FSF, Linux, Stallman, TechLore.
They shill for proprietary software like Google Play Services compared to MicroG because “IT BREAKS THE ANDROID SECURITY MODEL”, F-Droid because “IT BREAKS THE ANDROID SECURITY MODEL”, and shill for the Google Play Store (just create a burner Google account bro), Microsoft Windows (because they claim it’s safer than Linux because it doesn’t force the trusted computing environment) and constantly shit on FOSS projects.
Micay is a schizophrenic twitter and Matrix addict that spends his days on Twitter and on the Matrix room banning people because they are “trolls” (they complain about something that’s broken on GrapheneOS, he deletes all the messages and then bans the user) or searching for tweets containing CalyxOS or grapheneos on twitter that don’t mention him and DEBUNKING them, specially if it mentions CalyxOS in a good light or gives any criticism to him or his project, proceeded by claiming his community is always being brigaded by Calyx users.
Just search all his tweets (on grapheneos or danielmicay that mention calyx).
The guy has a huge persecution complex that every FOSS project or organization is out to get his project and himself (specially the cryptocurrency trolls, the farms and 4chan), so he’s always having a schizo meltdown on twitter.
His matrix room are full of schizos and bots that spend all day shilling for the aformentioned services.
They have a whole matrix channel dedicated to fighting “disinformation” about their OS. When a site mentions their crappy OS the link usually gets posted there and after a few hours threads get flooded by GrapheneOS fanboys shilling their system.
They also love censorship.
screenshotThose things do break the security model though. Theyre right about that.
If you care that much about “”“security”“” just sell your soul to apple. They will take good care of your data and provide world class security. I don’t know how even thinking about using google stuff in a foss rom is considered acceptable. You don’t need to go full Stallman, but I believe most people here don’t want to use google shit for some alleged “security”.
Security and privacy are not always aligned.
True, but grapheneos prioritizes security to an absurd level where they say stuff like how the google play store is better than f-droid. Of course this can be true, but there’s high chance the entire project is influenced by google.
Now that’s a paranoid take lmao
I dont hate it but id rather just use lineage os cause of broader device support. I live a degoogled life and would rather not have to explain to people I dont use and avoid google services yet own a google manufactured phone lol.
Here you go:
“Google makes the most secure phone. Including for securing your phone against Google.”
Its better then explaining you rather risk your data security then buy a phone from Google.
I really don’t mean to make this sound like FUD, but what about that blackbox security chip only used in google phones, that they promised to open source but never did? No OS can get around that…
Is there a fully open source phone?
Not one that works in the US at least, as all the carriers now require LTE and VoLTE.
I like lineage is and have used for 5+ years. I’m now using it without google services. I mainly use it because I can’t really afford a pixel phone and the many supported devices lineage is has is phenomenal. That being said I would love to tey graphene os.
People have to learn to separate software from its developer.
For example, I don’t care about Hyprland lead dev being an asshole sometimes, if the WM he’s developing works good. I don’t care about Cider devs political positions if it doesn’t directly affect my experience with the software.And people also have to learn, that if someone uses any particular software, they aren’t necessarily using it the way developer pointed out they should.
I use GrapheneOS on my device, but that doesn’t mean that I completely follow devs philosophy. I don’t use Vanadium, 'cause I don’t wanna support Chromium monopoly. I use F-Droid to install my apps, even if developers think, that I should get my apps directly from its devs.Does GrapheneOS founder or developer philosophy that you don’t agree with makes Graphene a bad OS? Of course it doesn’t. GrapheneOS is still one of the best options on degoogling your device if not the best.
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if the software is good and works to your benefit, why not use it?
sometimes people just don’t feel comfortable using work of someone who opposes their rights. even just using the product gives the creator more exposure, recognition, possible funding in the future if it gets big enough, and so on. so, if the creator is openly transphobic, for example, trans folks won’t want to use the product, and doubly so when the community around the product is toxic, too. they’re voting with their feet.
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I’ve tried both CalyxOS and GrapheneOS, since I’ve had a Pixel already. I don’t consider one “better” than the other.
Calyx is based on LineageOS, so you get a wider range of devices and functionality. It uses microG, which works great as long you don’t use any apps with IAP.
GrapheneOS’ play service sandbox can handle the case though, so I went with that, not being able to live without MacroDroid pro. Plus I like they got rid of Google location services altogether, and functionality-wise I’m not missing anything either.
Other people will have other priorities or preferences when it comes to their devices. Use whatever tickles your pickle.
You are making too much sense. You need to choose a side or both communities will hate you.
That’s good, choose what you’re comfortable with and what works for you. Everyone should do just that. We all have our own needs, priorities and threat models.
As I’ve said, I do like GrapheneOS, it is solid software in my opinion, but the humans behind it make me more paranoid than Samsung devices.
I don’t hate the project but I do find its users to be among the most annoying within the privacy community. They seem to have absolutely zero understanding of threat modeling and will get very dismissive and condescending the moment you mention a project other than GrapheneOS.
I think this is likely just a result of GrapheneOS being the most well known privacy ROM; it’s just naturally going to attract the type of person who watches a single YouTube video on a topic and then acts like they are now an expert who deserves to be respected and listened to at all times. Sorry, but if all you can do is parrot dot points from the project’s website and spout some security theatre gobbledygook that has absolutely zero relevance to my personal situation then I’m probably not going to be taking any of your unwarranted advice.
GrapheneOS developers were literally harassing me! No cap. I highly suggest avoiding it.
Don’t worry, I don’t use it. I don’t like Pixels and I don’t need the security features of GrapheneOS. The level of privacy I require can also be achieved through many alternative projects that support a wider range of devices, including maintaining support for older devices instead of encouraging e-waste, and have communities that are more positive, welcoming and open-minded.
But as I said, if people need that level of security then go right ahead. I am certainly not opposed to its existence; only the attitude from many of its users that GrapheneOS is superior in every aspect and that if you don’t use it you’re somehow uneducated or naive.
He did not really step down, it was just a symbolic public gesture. He’s still actively contributing to the project, check the GitHub commits and comments. He just stopped having so many Twitter meltdowns.
Micay did not step down nor is it a symbolic gesture. He removed himself, at the demand of others within the organization, from any public relations duties he once held. He is an excellent and talented engineer and an absolutely horrible representative.
He has no people skills. He does continue to contribute and guides the project privately. It should have been done long ago because I think he has done a lot of damage by overreacting and fostering a community of toxicity by being a bad example.
Since his departure it has been improving and GrapheneOS is becoming mature and a far cry from the Copperhead days.
He still regularly bans people and removes posts he disagrees with or that show the bad side of Graphene
I don’t think it has improved that much. The current social team just repackages the same opinions and behavior with fewer meltdowns. I see the change as purely symbolic.
Which is a good thing
He’s the administrator account in the GOS matrix.
It was never so much about the hate for GOS as it was for Daniel. Daniel is a absolute genius but has some mental and paranoid issues. Which hurt GOS reputation in the proces, Dont get me wrong I do not hate the guy or GOS at all but I do agree Daniel has some serious issues.
I don’t hate GrapheneOS but if your issue with the Android ecosystem is largely due to Google’s decisions in the software side, promoting Google’s hardware because currently they allow you to use alternative software is compromising your future options.
