Craig Doty II, a Tesla owner, narrowly avoided a collision after his vehicle, in Full Self-Driving (FSD) mode, allegedly steered towards an oncoming train.
Nighttime dashcam footage from earlier this month in Ohio captured the harrowing scene: Doty’s Tesla rapidly approaching a train with no apparent deceleration. He insisted his Tesla was in Full Self-Driving mode when it barreled towards the train crossing without slowing down.
Man, am I glad that I couldn’t afford a Tesla when I thought they were cool and didn’t find Musk repulsive.
Bro I wouldn’t trust Elon to make me a sandwich.
He’d keep telling you it’s nearly ready but you have already been waiting for hours.
The hypersub sounds difficult, but it’s really easy. I know you are hungry now, but it’s worth it to wait a few years. We’ll make enough hypersubs for everyone by 2028.
And when you get it it’s clearly missing some of the ingredients but he tells you to trust him
And when you get it the bread is cardboard, the cheese is cheap factory stuff but there is little flag pinned on top and sauces with quit daring appearences (some kind of gel with little stars and a bright fluerscent yellow one) have been applied with a clear decorative intent.
The lack of waiters is not his fault.
At this point, I believe I know more about sandwich making than any human alive on Earth.
Scene: a gigantic pop up tent with diesel generators in a desert, featuring many granite counters as well as top of the line kitchen appliances, and gamer lighting, all being set up in by workers who are immediately laid off once the jobsite is completed
Elon enters the tent with 4 Tesla bots slowly shambling behind him. One lags out when its remote link to a human controller is severed. Minutes later the remnants of a starlink satellite crash through the far end of the tent kitchen.
3 remaining Tesla bots proceed to bumble around like idiots, unable to open packets of deli ham, entirely ripping off the tops of deli mustard containers
Elon is awkwardly smiling and doing jazz hands the whole time
A neuralink mind controlled pig walks in as one Tesla bot wields a knife. Elon raises his hand to his ear, nods, then pushes a button on some phone app
The pig screams, then a popping noise is heard, and the pig collapses to the ground with smoke and blood coming out of its ears and nose
knife wielding tesla bot attempts to cut the pig’s flank, falls, cannot recover
the two remaining tesla bots continue in vain to open a loaf of bread without ripping the entire loaf apart. One slips and falls backwards, the other one runs out of battery and is frozen in place, holding a single piece of wonder bread
Elon curses, reaches into a refrigerator and hands you a crustable
Cut him a break, he’s pioneering sandwich making with this innovative tech. A few hiccups are to be expected.
Same
Just watched the video. Maybe it’s just me, but if you’re the driver in a Tesla, and it’s foggy as fuck outside, maybe, just maybe, don’t use the self driving aspect when visibility is that bad. The amount of people willing to trust Tesla with their lives (and others on the road…) is too damn high!
I’d put the blame on the branding, full self drive shluld mean full self drive, not most-conditions self drive without explicitly providing the limitations. Even irplane autopilot systems, which solve a simpler problem, have explicit limitations stated
There really needs to be legal pressure for them to change the name. I don’t see how it’s not false advertising.
More and more they are starting to look like someone just vacuum molded the body over a chassis rather than putting any sort of real artistry to it. It also makes me wonder if Ellen is saying the look is “sexy,” does he have some sort of spandex fetish. Maybe he stole his mum’s pantyhose when alone and strutted around the house wearing them, thinking of himself as such. Maybe he still does…
Did the owner not put their car in “Do not ram train” mode?
That’s an optional software upgrade. It’ll cost you $12.95 a month.
Oh come on, who wouldn’t pay for that? To not run into trains? That’s a bargain! Thanks Daddy Musk 🥰
And just think, the rest of us rubes have to manually not drive into trains, like barbarians
So sick of people referring to “Do not ram train” mode. You see it all over social media, but especially Lemmy. It’s “Do not ram train (Supervised)” mode, and you’d have to be living under a rock for the last 5+ years to think you don’t have to actually take control of the wheel to stop it from ramming a train.
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If self-driving A.I. models need a workforce to help identify trains, we could probably assemble an army of toddlers willing to be paid in cookies. My friend’s kid gets HYPE and yells “TRAIN!” when he sees one. He can also reliably identify cows. He calls most construction equipment “big truck” but that might be good enough. If a Tesla thinks a backhoe is a big truck, it’ll avoid it.
And that’s the biggest issue so far with “AI.” It’s about as intelligent as a newborn.
No, newborns rapidly take in new information and learn. “AI” is just a sophisticated text probability model. It doesn’t know anything. It isn’t learning how things work. It just regurgitates.
It’s like the difference between a student who understands the concepts versus memorizes the test answers.
It’s about as intelligent as a newborn.
Newborns can’t even utter one cohesive word. I don’t get the point of making such an obviously false claims about anything.
A wise Jedi once said, “The ability to speak does not make you intelligent”
Intelligence is not binary, but a spectrum.
Please select all images containing TRAIN
Autistic kid dream job.
Tesla opted not to use LIDAR as part of its sensor package and instead relies on cameras which are not enough to determine accurate location data for other cars/trains etc.
This is what you get when billionaires cheap out on their products.
Not only that, but took out the radar, which while it has its own flaws, would have had no issue seeing the train through the fog. While they claimed it was because they had “solved vision” and didn’t need it anymore, it’s bullshit, and their engineering team knew it. They were in the middle of sourcing a new radar, but because of supply chain limitations (like everyone in 2021) with both their old and potential new supplier, they wouldn’t continue their “infinite growth” narrative and fElon wouldn’t get his insane pay package. They knew for a fact it would negatively affect performance significantly, but did it anyway so line could go up.
While no automotive company’s hands are particularly clean, the sheer level of willful negligence at Tesla is absolutely astonishing and have seen and heard so many stories about their shitty engineering practices that the only impressive thing is how relatively few people have died as a direct result of their lax attitude towards basic safety practices.
I never understood Musk’s reasoning for this decision. From my recollection it was basically “how do you decide who’s right when lidar and camera disagree?” And it felt so insane to say that the solution to conflicting data was not to figure out which is right but only to listen to one.
Also that LIDAR is more expensive then cameras, which means higher end user price, as far as I remember.
I wasn’t sure if he admitted that as being the reason (even though it obviously is)
I thought that was his main justification, idk tho, I don’t listen to the earnings calls or interviews myself lol
LIDAR would have similarly been degraded in the foggy conditions that this occurred in. Lasers are light too.
While I do think Tesla holds plenty of responsibility for their intentionally misleading branding in FSD, as well as cost saving measures to not include lidar and/or radar, this particular instance boils down to yet another shitty and irresponsible driver.
You should not be relying on FSD over train tracks. You should not be allowing FSD to be going faster than conditions allow. Dude was tearing down the road in thick fog, way faster than was safe for the conditions.
Well said.
AI said kill this guy right here
It noticed he didn’t like Elon’s tweet that day.
You know… I’d believe Elon is petty enough to actually put something like that in.
The good news is that we can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel…
“It’s just a freight train coming your waaaaayyyyyyy!” -metalilica
Seriously, you just had to throw that pun in there. LOL.
Every couple of months there’s a new story like this. And yet we’re supposed to believe this system is ready for use…
It is ready because Musk needs it to be ready. Watch out, this comment may bring the morale down, and Elron will be forced to … Cry like a baby 😆
Didn’t he recently claim Tesla robotaxi is only months away?
Well I suppose he didn’t say how many months, but the implication was less than a year, which has been his claim every year since 2016.He said that Teslas were an investment worth hundreds of thousands of dollars because owners would be able to use them as robot taxis when they weren’t using their car and charge a small fee by next year…in 2019. Back then he promised 1 million robot taxis nationwide in under a year. Recently he gave the date august 8 to reveal a new model of robot taxi. So, by Cybertruck estimates, I would say a Tesla robot taxi is a possibility by late 2030.
He is just spewing shit to keep the stock price afloat, as usual.
He also said they were ready to manufacture the 2nd generation Tesla Roaster “now,” which was back in 2014. No points for guessing that as of yet (despite taking in millions of dollars in preorders) they have not produced a single one.
Given this very early and still quite relevant warning, I’m astounded that anyone is dumb enough to believe any promise Elon makes about anything.
In what way is it not ready to use? Does cars have some other driver assistant features that are fool proof? You’re not supposed to blindly trust any of those. Why would FSD be an exception? The standards people are aplying to it are quite unreasonable.
Because it’s called Full Self Drive and Musk has said it will be able to drive without user intervention?
The naming is poor, but in no way does the car represent to you that no intervention is required. It also constantly asks you for input and even watches your eyes to make sure you pay attention.
The car maybe not, but the marketing sure does
Marketing besides the naming we have already established and Elon himself masturbating to it? Is there some other marketing that pushes this narrative, because I certainly have not seen it.
It’s called Full Self Driving (Supervised)
Yeah, it will be able to drive without driver intervention eventually. Atleast that’s their goal. Right now however, it’s level 2 and no-one is claiming otherwise.
In what way is it not ready to use?
Full Self Driving (sike!)
It’s unreasonable for FSD to see a train? … that’s 20ft tall and a mile long? Am I understanding you correctly?
Foolproof would be great, but I think most people would set the bar at least as high as not getting killed by a train.
Did you watch the video? It was insanely foggy there. It makes no difference how big the obstacle is if you can’t even see 50 meters ahead of you.
Also, the car did see the train. It just clearly didn’t understand what it was and how to react to it. That’s why the car has a driver who does. I’m sure this exact edge case will be added to the training data so that this doesn’t happen again. Stuff like this takes ages to iron out. FSD is not a finished product. It’s under development and receives constant updates and keeps improving. That’s why it’s classified as level 2 and not level 5.
Yes. It’s unreasonable to expect brand new technology to be able to deal with every possible scenario that a car can encounter on traffic. Just because the concept of train in a fog makes sense to you as a human doesn’t mean it’s obvious to the AI.
In what way is it not ready to use?
To me it seems you just spent three paragraphs answering your own question.
can’t even see 50 meters ahead
didn’t understand what it was and how to react to it
FSD is not a finished product. It’s under development
doesn’t mean it’s obvious to the AI
If I couldn’t trust a system not to drive into a train, I don’t feel like I would trust it to do even the most common tasks. I would drive the car like a fully attentive human and not delude myself into thinking the car is driving me with “FSD.”
You can’t see 50 meters ahead in that fog.
Completely true. And I would dictate my driving characteristics based on that fact.
I would drive at a speed and in a manner that would allow me to not almost crash into things. But especially trains.
I agree. In fact I’m surprised the vehicle even lets you enable FSD in that kind of poor visibility and based on the video it seemed to be going quite fast aswell.
LIDAR can
Yeah there’s a wide range of ways to map the surroundings. Road infrastructure, however is designed for vision so I don’t see why just cameras wouldn’t be sufficient. The issue here is not that it’s didn’t see the train - it’s on video, after all - but that it didn’t know how to react to it.
No, the standards people are applying to it are the bare minimum for a full self driving system like what musk claims.
It’s a level 2 self driving system which by definition requires driver supervision. It’s even stated in the name. What are the standards it doesn’t meet?
Of whiat words is FSD an acronym?
You’re not supposed to blindly trust any of those. Why would FSD be an exception?
Because that’s how Elon (and by extension Tesla) market it. Full self driving. If they’re saying I can blindly trust their product, then I expect it to be safe to blindly trust it.
And if the fine print says I can’t blindly trust it, they need to be sued or put under legal pressure to change the term, because it’s incredibly misleading.
Full Self Driving (Beta), nowdays Full Self Driving (Supervised)
Which of those names invokes trust to put your life in it’s hands?
It’s not in fine print. It’s told to you when you purchase FSD and the vehicle reminds you of it every single time you enable the system. If you’re looking at your phone it starts nagging at you eventually locking you out of the feature. Why would they put driver monitoring system in place if you’re supposed to put blind faith into it?
That is such an old, beat up strawman argument. Yes, Elon has said it would be fully autonomous in a year or so which turned out to be a lie but nobody today is claiming it can be blindly trusted. That simply just is not true.
Unfortunately, companies also have to make their products safe for idiots. If the system is in beta or must be supervised, there should be inherently safe design that prevents situations like this from happening even if an idiot is at the wheel.
ESP is not idiot proof either just to name one such feature that’s been available for decades. It assists the driver but doesn’t replace them.
Hell, cars themselves are not idiot proof.
Yeah and cars should have a system to stop idiots doing dumb things, best we have is a license so if it’s good enough for cars without added safety features is good enough for them with
It isn’t Full Self Driving if it is supervised.
It’s especially not Full Self Driving if it asks you to intervene.
It is false advertisement at best, deadly at worst.
It’s misleading advertising for sure. At no point have I claimed otherwise.
The meaning of what qualifies as “full self driving” is still up for debate however. There are worse human drivers on the roads than what the current version of FSD is capable of. It’s by no means flawless but it’s much better than most people even realize. It’s a vehicle capable of self driving even if not fully.
Ever couple of months you hear about every issue like this, just like you hear about every airline malfunction. It ignores the base rate of accurate performances which is very high.
FSD is imperfect but still probably more ready for use than a substantial fraction of human drivers.
This isn’t actually true. The Tesla full self driving issues we hear about in the news are the ones that result in fatal and near fatal accidents, but the forums are chock full of reports from owners of the thing malfunctioning on a regular basis.
It IS actually true. It does goofy stuff in some situations, but on the whole is a little better than your typical relatively inexperienced driver. It gets it wrong about when to be assertive and when to wait sometimes, it thinks there’s enough space for a courteous merge but there isn’t (it does some Chicago style merges sometimes), it follows the lines on the road like they are gospel, and doesn’t always properly estimate how to come to a smooth and comfortable stop. These are annoying things, but not outrageous provided you are paying attention like you’re obliged to do.
I have it, I use it, and I make lots of reports to Tesla. It is way better than it used to be and still has plenty of room to improve, but a Tesla can’t reboot without having a disparaging article written about it.
Also fuck elon, because I don’t think it gets said enough.
typical relatively inexperienced driver
Look at the rates that teenagers crash, this is an indictment.
provided you are paying attention
It was advertised as fully autonomous dude. People wouldn’t have this much of a hard-on for trashing it if it wasn’t so oversold.
This fully autonomous argument is beat to death already. Every single Tesla owner knows you’re supposed to pay attention and be ready to take over when necessary. That is such a strawman argument. Nobody blames the car when automatic braking fails to see the car infront of it. It might save your ass if you’re distracted but ultimately it’s always the driver whose responsible. FSD is no different.
Seriously you sound like a Mac user in the '90s. “It only crashes 8 or 9 times a day, it’s so much better than it used to be. It’s got so many great features that I’m willing to deal with a little inconvenience…” Difference being that when a Mac crashes it just loses some data and has to reboot but when a Tesla crashes people die.
These are serious rate differences man.
Every driver, and even Tesla, will tell you it’s a work in progress, and you’d be hard pressed to find someone who has had an accident with it. I’d be willing to bet money that IF You find someone who has had an accident they have a driving record that’s shitty without it too.
If you want to talk stats, let’s talk stats, but “It seems like Tesla is in the news a lot for near crashes” is a pretty weak metric, even from your armchair.
You hear so much about the people Jeffrey Dahmer murdered, but never anything about all the people he didn’t murder!
Cute.
Here’s some actual information
People are terrible at probability estimation, and even with two fatal accidents a month FSD is likely still safer than most of the people on the road per million miles driven.
When you look at the development notes on the self-driving at Tesla, anyone with a brain wouldn’t trust that shit, not even a little bit. Most of what they did is placate Musk’s petty whims and delusions. Any real R&D issues were basically glazed over it given quick software fixes.
Are there notes available to read?
Here’s one of the few articles that wasn’t paywalled when I pulled up a Google search on it. It’s really not hard to find the stories are all over the place.
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-fsd-engineers-unsettled-2021-8
Demonstrate what you mean because it really sounds like you’re describing what you feel should be true to justify your emotions about the bad Twitter man.
And to be clear, I mean link the documents you claim to have read and the parts of them you claim demonstrate this.
Just need to Google “Tesla self-driving development engineers and Elon Musk”, and you’ll find lots of articles. Here’s one of the few that wasn’t paywalled.
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-fsd-engineers-unsettled-2021-8
This is an article from 2021 about a book researched in 2019.
Yeah, during development of the Tesla self driving system.
Read the development notes from the first years of any technology you use. The research you’re “referencing” is six years old at this point.
What’s next? You going to criticize an iPod Nano to make a point about the broken screen on your iPhone 8? Criticize Google assistant from 2019 to harangue OpenAI?
Look at what six years of development means: https://youtu.be/qTDlRLeDxxM?si=dFZzLcO_a8wfy2QS
He fortunately avoided the train, but unfortunately still owns a Tesla.
What a bunch of morons people were in 1912 to believe a ship could be unsinkable. Amirite guys?
As a frequent train passenger, I’m not overly concerned.
Seems a bit too weak to derail, probably only delay.
Those trains sure are weird and confusing, with their back and forth those tracks and all. Makes you wonder about train safety, it does!
TL;DR Tesla driver almost won Darwin award.
It was so foggy that I’m not surprised the car couldn’t figure out what was happening. The guy also said his car had driven towards trains twice before, so he’s definitely a dumbass for continuing to use self driving, especially in heavy fog.
If only there was some sort of sensing technology that wasn’t purely optical, that’d be pretty neat. Maybe even using something like radio, for detection and ranging. Too bad no one’s ever come up with something like that.
Feels like these things were more capable a decade ago when they had radar.
Not that they should be called “full self driving” either then or now, but at least radar can deal fog better than regular ass cameras
looks like the engineers misunderstood what “training mode” was supposed to do.
they would want to improve their track record after this, otherwise the public would just choo them up.
Oh the engineers probably perfectly understood what was going on. But they don’t have the ability to correct Musk when he’s spewing bullshit.
Ethically speaking though they’re supposed to refuse signing off on the work and whistleblow the issues, so they aren’t free of guilt.
Right now at my work we have a gap in our safety analysis with a contractor’s product, and we’ve had to fight the VP to explain how we can’t just say “it’s their problem so we won’t deal with it” if its part of our product. One of my colleagues had to go up a head to inform the head of safety that we were having issues. It’s still an ongoing fight, but I cannot in good conscience allow the product to be finalized when we know there’s a safety issue that needs to be addressed.
Don’t get me wrong, it isn’t an easy thing to do, and I’m really grateful that my coworker is very steadfast on this. But engineers aren’t supposed to approve of any work they know is unsafe.
Usually with ML, you separate your train and test data.
