• UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    edit-2
    1 month ago

    people in charge of these movements are people who deliberately seek power

    “Don’t trust anyone who tells you what to do”

    “Okay, I’m not going to trust you.”

    “No, you idiot! That’s not what I meant!”

    So, anyway, let’s talk about why the Anarchists of the Spanish Civil War got absolutely rolled by the well organized and disciplined Fascists. Then maybe pop over to Russia, China, Cuba, Korea, and Vietnam, and consider why Marxism have had a better record on self defense.

    • Dragon@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      edit-2
      1 month ago

      the Anarchists of the Spanish Civil War got absolutely rolled betrayed by the well organized and disciplined Fascists Communists

      FTFY

      • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 month ago

        Please ignore the history of Anarchists fighting the Communists, it simply must have been the dirty Marxists betraying the noble Anarchists.

        • Dragon@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 month ago

          Are you referring to instances in which Anarchist groups in the Spanish Civil War took actions to hurt Communist groups? I won’t claim it didn’t happen, but I don’t know of examples.

          • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            1 month ago

            I’m referring to the general distrust of Anarchists by the Communists. They fought against the Anarchists of Russia during the Russian Civil War, yet still supplied the Spanish Anarchists with weapons and vehicles. The general fact that Anarchists struggle with organization and Communists generally don’t to nearly the same degree compounded this.

            By what manner do you say the Communists betrayed the Anarchists?

            • Dragon@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 month ago

              USSR-aligned groups, where they had power in Spain, in many instances used that power to imprison, smear, and seize weapons from, and attack non-USSR-aligned groups. You can look up José Cazorla’s anti-subversion measures in Madrid, or PSUC’s attacks on POUM during the Barcelona May Days.

              • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                1 month ago

                Yes, and the anti-USSR groups used their power to imprison, smear, seize weapons from, and attack USSR-aligned groups.

                It wasn’t a “betrayal,” it was a conflict in how the war should be fought. The Anarchists tried to stick to decentralization even within the context of war, and lost. Had the Anarchists adopted a more Marxist line, they may have succeeded.

                • Dragon@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 month ago

                  I’m not sure they did, at least not preemptively. Do you have examples?

                  • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    1 month ago

                    What’s your understanding of the entire situation? Are you suggesting that it was going well until the Communists backstabbed the Anarchists? Taking a real, materialist analysis of the situation is necessary. Historically, Communists and Anarchists have had uneasy alliances until differences in organizational theory lead to friction and then conflict.

      • GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 month ago

        Hate to be betrayed by not having enough tanks sent to me. Maybe if the Spanish anarchists had all the military equipment they wanted, they would have won, but the war-torn Russians couldn’t afford to waste equipment on the shittily organized anarchists, so now I’m going to whinge about it for a century as though that makes them equivalent to (or worse than) the fascists who actually killed them!

        • Dragon@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 month ago

          The Spanish Civil War wasn’t anarchists vs fascists. There was a popular front that included anarchists, socialists, communists, liberals. The USSR-associated groups made a grab for power over the anarchist factions, which can’t have helped the war effort.

          • GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            edit-2
            1 month ago

            There was logistical involvement from the USSR itself, which is what I thought you were referring to. I have nothing to say one way or another about internal factionalism, besides that the whole basis of your riff is still equivocating with or in fact making the Communists out to be worse than the Francoists, which I find to be in poor taste. You come off even worse than those dweebs who fellate the Makhnovist.

            Do you have nothing to say to Cowbee?

            • Dragon@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              1 month ago

              My only goal was to push back on the notion that the Spanish Civil War was lost due to anarchist disorganization. I’m not sure what response the other commenter warrants, it’s just a quip.

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        1 month ago
        • Don’t listen to anyone in authority
        • Don’t collaborate anyone in authority
        • Don’t submit to anyone in authority

        The people in authority betrayed us.