Israel right now

Many don’t even do it intentionally, they just don’t grasp concepts like Historical and Dialectical Materialism, which requires reading lengthy books to fully grasp. They may be anti-Capitalist at heart, but without a solid understanding of theory they play into bourgeois hands.

There’s also the fact that the ideas held by society are a reflection of the Mode of Production.

1. After the revolution, how to you prevent the people that were influential during the revolution from seizing power for themselves, becoming the new bourgeoisie. This happened time and time again in practice.

This hasn’t happened “time and time again in practice.” What do you mean by a “new bourgeoisie?” How familiar are you with Marxism? You may want to read the book Blackshirts and Reds for clarifying and contextualizing the myriad successes and failures of AES states historically.

2. Even in the best case scenario, the decisions on what to produce become centralized in the hands of politicians. Political systems that we tried so far don’t work that well in practice. Is this really the best solution?

Again, please elaborate. Centralization is a natural consequence of market-based systems over time, therefore Marxists see central planning of public property to be the next phase in Mode of Production. Marxism isn’t about trying to force a new society, but moving along the natural progression in Mode of Production.

AES states have not been perfect, but they have dramatically improved on previous systems. I think a good intro to the process of historical development would be reading the short essay Why do Marxists fail to bring about the “Worker’s Paradise?” You seem to believe Socialism to be something that can be implemented by decree, by fiat, rather than something that forms over time. The laws of a system depend on the Mode of Production, the capacity for democratization increases alongside centralization and increases in the productive forces. This process is why Marx says the bourgeoisie produces “more than anything, its own gravediggers.”

I’d recommend reading the second link before the first, the second article gets to the heart of your issues and takes around 20 minutes, the first link is a full book and is generally a good read, not as immediately relevant.

It certainly affects the outcome, it signals support for ending genocide and delegitimizes the system.

The Dems are doing that themselves, just because you’re a right-winger aiding fascism doesn’t mean I’m a “fake leftwinger.”

Well, unlike you, I can tell the difference between Hitler and the democratic party. You’re so full of false equivalence.

Where is the red line for you to stop supporting the increasingly right-wing Democrats? It certainly isn’t genocide, you’re voting for that this time around, so is there a meaningful point of no return? If not, you would vote for Hitler.

If they move left, you’ll still not vote for them because you’re too pure to compromise and you will forever throw your supposedly leftist ideals on the dustbin of throwing what tiny tiny tiny power you have away and convincing anyone that shares your views to do the same.

I have been advocating for revolution this entire thread. I am advocating for people to stop supporting the genocidal US Empire and do something other than legitimizing the US Terrorist State.

Because Harris listens to what they say?! Your theories seem to result in you checking out of having any effect on the world. No thanks.

No, because those are revolutionary orgs. Your lack of theory has you firmly advocating for dead ends.

If your activism wasn’t about to hand power to the literal fascists, it might have some appeal and I might think you were genuine or correct, but I can’t tell the difference between republican trolls and tankies because they give the exact same advice - if you care, make sure you don’t affect the outcome. What kind of shit advice is that?

The Dems are handing power to the fascists. They are committing genocide, Imperialism, failing to address the climate, refusing to help women, trans people, minority populations, and are accelerating towards World War 3.

Fascism will not be beaten by a Dem victory, it will still come. Fascism is Capitalism in decay, as long as Capitalism continues to decay fascism continues to rise. You are working towards fascism. Right-wingers like you would rather genocide continue than lift a finger to help Muslims.

Read theory and join an org.

If they move right, you’ll still support that until the end of the world. You would vote for Hitler if Hitler+ was the opponent, instead of lifting a finger against the system.

You keep pretending third party voters are non-voters, which is definitionally false.

The Dems follow the money, which comes from their donors. This drives policy.

For electoralism, they gesture to their voterbase, but this doesn’t impact their real policy.

I didn’t say she was left wing, I said she was the most left wing candidate the democrats have fielded in decades

This is still meaningless.

If she loses, the democrats will give up on trying to move left even a tiny bit. If she wins, they can safely move further left. But every time they lose, they move right, to compromise wry the voters who actually vote.

They will not move left. If they win, they realize they can keep moving right. Dems want to move right to serve their donors.

You seem to be confusing Biden and Harris, which is understandable, but not particularly clear headed.

Not at all. Care to elaborate?

Please stop pretending to care. You’re an acceleratist pretending to want things to get better. You clearly want it to get worse and you come up with the most backwards-on logic to pretend it’ll make things better.

Please stop pretending to care. You’re an accelerationist pretending to want things to get better. You clearly want it to get worse and you come up with the most backwards-on logic to pretend it’ll make things better.

Read theory. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.

Do you think the Dems try to serve their voters, or their donors?

With libs like you? Sadly, you might be right. You’ll whine about the world ending as you refuse to lift a finger to stop it.

In the dark times, should the stars also go out?

Why do you think he’s joking?

Not voting, voting for Shill Stein, it’s all gonna have the same effect - republicans winning and the democrats chasing the only votes on the table because the left folks abstain or effectively abstain.

The dems can move left if they want leftist votes, and more people are moving to the left as Capitalism declines.

Not voting is electoral death. Voting third party is electoral death. On which planet is the republicans winning going to make the democrats move away from rightwing policies? None of them!

Electoralism is death.

They are going to move to the right if they lose. We have one of the most leftwing candidates the democrats have fielded in decades

Are you genuinely being serious, here? Do you know what Left-Wing means? LMAO

and if she loses, the party bosses are going to say “see, it’s senseless chasing leftwing votes, they’re too pure to muddy their hands in actually effecting the outcome - we have to more to where people who actually vote are. The only way to win is to have policies that actual voters like, not your theoretical voters who won’t compromise - you’ll never get their vote. Come back to the centre!” And of course we both know what the centre means in America.

Harris is campaigning to the RIGHT. She is moving RIGHT and losing voters over it.

And I can tell you you will continue to support the increasingly right wing Democrats, and in 20 years, if Leftists save the world, you’ll look back on your right-wing support with disgust.

Bourgeoisie - Capital Owners, doesn’t need to labor to survive

Petite Bourgeoisie - Small Capital Owners, must labor to survive

Proletariat - Workers, sell their labor power to survive and own little to no Capital

Lumpenproletariat - criminals, sex workers, the scorned laborers of society

This may be, but the probability is unarguably higher than with Trump

This is entirely arguable, Harris doesn’t support Israel out of any moral reasoning, but economic.

Personally, I’d even argue that it’s unethical to not vote for a candidate like Harris, just because the chances of getting stuff like ranked choice voting or educating voters done (which will then lead to you being able to realistically vote for others) is significantly higher when voting Democrats than… letting Trump win?

This is also wrong. The Dems don’t want RCV, nor would implementing it fix the system.

Notice that I don’t say you have to agree with anything else she stands for, you’re trying to achieve certain goals/get out of the very unfortunate current situation, and even a low chance of reaching that is infinitely better than none.

There is no chance under Kamala.

The only way forward is revolution. Delegitimizing Dem and Rep rule is an important step towards revolution.