- cross-posted to:
- gaming@beehaw.org
- games@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- gaming@beehaw.org
- games@sh.itjust.works
TL;DR:
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They apologized (again)
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They will refund everyone who bought the beach DLC and make it a free addition to the game, admitting it was tasteless that they made paid DLC when the game is in a broken state
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They will focus on base changes and better modding tools before starting to make more DLC (previously announced DLC has been delayed to 2025)
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Console release delayed
Honestly, this is a good update. It’s everything we wanted to hear. Looking forward to buying the game when it gets fixed.
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This was too late. Paradox’s in house development studio did the same thing with Victoria 3. Do something way too greedy (lock historical characters behind a preorder for a dlc that was already bad). Waited to see the backlash, and when it was too much, they make the bonuses free.
At least they’re doing something, but the dlc should have been pushed back at launch.
It’s not just greedy, at this point it’s blatant. The release itself was already bonkers, but they could have saved things by working hard on the base game and releasing additional free content. But this? How many “sowwy we fucked up, we promise to do better, buy our new 132 DLCs” will they pull before people stop giving them the benefit of the doubt?
I’m not hopeful at all. If Bethesda or Blizzard are anything to go by, they can keep messing up big time for years, maybe decades to come and consumers will keep coming back, begging to be disappointed once more. You’ll have more luck looking for alternatives out there in the ocean of indie games.
Yep. It will never change As long as gamers continue to buy from shitty companies, the companies have no incentive to change in any direction but worse. Bethesda is a brilliant example of it, how every game is more simplistic and devoid, and more reliant on randomly generated content than the previous.
Ubisoft is another example, with the outright hostility, hatred and downright contempt they have towards their own customers.
and they are both still multi-billion dollar companies, cause idiots keep throwing them tons of money.
These updates from C:SL team mean nothing, cause they keep doing stupid shit despite of their sweet words. Like they did with trying to sell DLC for a broken game. Their actions and focus speak far louder than any of their honeyed words.
I am actually planning on not buying anything more from paradox if they fuck up the launch of eu5, only dlc from current games (if they’re worth it/required)
Dlc should never feel required
But it does, sadly.
This is why I stopped buying Paradox games and just pirate them if I’m curious. No way I’m getting trapped in a fomo cycle everytime they release a minor feature for $5.
I’ve hated Paradox ever since I bought CK2 and then realized how many minor features were locked behind $5 DLCs. I later pirated the game to play all the DLC and there is absolutely no fucking way that shit was worth what they are charging. Decided then never to buy a Paradox game again.
Compare that to the Factorio devs Wube. They released their game as a beta and then just kept updating it and adding features until it was done. Then they spent years fixing basically every bug in the game. As far as I know they never decreased the price or put the game on sale, and at one point they increased the price of their game because of inflation. Which honestly is fine, they made a great game and they are continuing to support the game, why decrease the price?
I know I’m coming off as a Wube shill but in my eyes they are ideal devs. Paradox in theory make really interesting games but in practice they poison them with shitty monetization strategies. If they just made games and added free updates for a while afterwards if they wanted to I probably would have spent a shit load on their games.
I’m ranting but as a side note, Paradox definitely abuses fomo. They make games that basically require you to watch videos of how to play and those videos inevitably mention DLCs which you then start wondering what you’re missing out on. That’s definitely what made me want to buy their DLC.
Fuck paradox
It is a shame they’re such a greedy company because, similarly to what you said in your 3rd paragraph, they make good games, some can be as good as games like factorio at times, but it’s always ruined by their dlc.
You mentioned free updates at the end, I believe they are doing that for victoria 3, but their first big expansion for the game, spheres of influence, comes out in June so we’ll see if they stick to that.
I love paradox games and have the money to by their dlc most the time and will keep buying the ones I want (because the beach dlc was too far even for the largest paradox shills) as long as the game’s stability and the free players are prioritised, unlike the way they have been treated in cities: skylines 2.
And yes, fuck paradox, shame their games are ruined by their greed.
CK2 was a complete game at launch IIRC. They just kept releasing new DLC for it for many years, much of which was outside the scope of the original game (playing as Arabic rulers, vikings, Indians, etc). I think that’s fine. Them selling music, portraits, and new models separately was kinda shitty though.
Remember when games used to be a finished product on a cartridge/CD? You just bought it at the store for a base price of a video game and that was it. Any bugs found in the game became widely accepted, and maybe even exploited by competitive gamers. But there was no patching, no updates, no DLC. You paid for a game up front and that was it.
I miss those days.
idk if this is a stupid opinion but I feel like us, the consumers are to blame. If everyone just waited a week and read reviews before buying games then publishers wouldn’t be able to get away with this shit.
Honestly, I always felt the $60 price tag for games (now $70+ for AAA titles!) was way too much, so I usually wait about a year or more, then buy it on sale.
So I get to sit back and watch the shitshow when people pre-order games and then get screwed when the game is garbage.
Dragon’s Dogma II was super hyped up recently, and even I got the free character customization demo to pre-build a character. Then it announced day-one microtransactions the day before release and pissed off the gaming community.
No, the consumers are never to blame for stuff like this!
This is something that is just that we get told by the people that are lying about and hyping up a product, putting up manipulative incentives for buying it before letting us inspect it. Then releasing trash, but still appealing on our empathic nature and promising that it might get fixed later. And when things turn to shit, then it is our trust and empathy, willingness to support them, that is to blame for it. No!
If the industry exploits our good and trusting nature, then we need to fight them with regulation and laws. Our civilization and the human nature is built on trust, and that should not be undermined by short profit oriented, exploitative companies or business practices.
I do wait, and the publishers don’t get away with selling me unfinished games. It’s great.
I wait at least a month for any game, 8 months for a Bethesda game.
I waited a year for cyberpunk, until everyone was saying it was all fixed, and I hated all the bugs and some bad design decisions. Nothing major, but it felt like death of a thousand cuts.
I shudder to imagine how that game looked at release that this feels like a polished product to people.
Hah, yeah I also played cyberpunk quite recently. I really liked it for the most part, I’m considering playing it again with a totally different build.
Yeah, I saw some early gameplay videos from cyberpunk… I think it has indeed come a very long way.
I can’t say I didn’t like it. Quite the opposite, but for a supposedly fixed game, there were still too many annoyances.
It’s preorders. Stop preordering, and either the products will improve or studios will collapse.
To be precise, the new generation is to blame, who constantly preorders a game, and spends a lot on mobile games. Companies realize that bad products sell, so why would they improve?
The new generation? I remember this stuff happening 15 years ago. People were camping outside before big game releases and had an incentive to ensure they got a copy of the game. The new generation that only buys digital is not to blame for the practice taking hold.
The new generation?
In relation to who you were replying to, I think ‘new’ is in the eye of the beholder. Time is relative.
Yeah, that’s what I meant. I didn’t define the new generation, but in my mind people since the 80s are the new generation to me (I’m old). And you’re right, camping a store to buy something you never saw is of course the issue. And in my country, people buy a house before it’s even built, and that’s also an issue that is common in this ‘new generation’. So, this new generation tends to accept that buying something without seeing it is alright, and the gaming industry reflects that.
“The new generation”
So there are no 40 year olds who blindly pre order the 15th CoD game because that’s all they play? This is a general issue in the gaming community as a whole.
Instead of getting hung up on an actual age number, consider it as older society versus the current newer society.
We can all argue the details, but today’s consumer who purchase games seem to be a lot more willing to accept an inferior product, than those of the past.
lol new generation. It’s millennials, gen x and boomers that spend $500 on Candy Crush without noticing, not Gen Z & Alpha.
I remember a few cases where a rare bug softlocked my game and I had to reset my entire progress. It wasn’t all that good I would say. They definitely had some standard of quality on release though.
It wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows. I remember losing hundreds of hours of progress on games due to memory card corruption. Or game cartridges/CDs no longer working, requiring you to buy a new copy. Or consoles getting straight-up bricked.
Hell, a ton of people have memories of blowing into N64/SNES cartridges to get them to work since they had notoriously unreliable connectors. But even though it was something that didn’t work great, everybody has fond memories of doing it since there wasn’t this amalgamation of voices from every direction telling you to be upset about it and clamoring for retribution. If something was broken, you got frustrated about it, complained to your friends, and then moved on with your life since there wasn’t anything else you could do.
Want the blowing for NES?
Games were also significantly less complex then. It takes teams of 100s of people to make a AAA game now. But don’t kid yourself, there were definitely game-breaking bugs back then. And in the pc world, patches arrived much, much earlier than in the console world.
FF7 and supreme commander were complex. And devs then didn’t have the tools we have today, not to mention game engines (there were, but not like today). And ps3 was a pain to program for. And, and…
Speaking of FF7, I am just about finished with Rebirth and all I thought was wow I didn’t see a single update and it played flawlessly. Just shows it can still happen, just super rare.
At the end of the day it’s apples to oranges. The behind the scene development is so different that we can’t really judge them properly, we just have other modern games to compare them to.
Arguably, patches started even earlier. It wasn’t uncommon to release another whole title that was basically a bug/balance patch. See Japanese Pokemon Blue, and all the various Street Fighter 2 versions.
Cart version revisions weren’t uncommon either. But they would only be for new purchases.
A lot of games were significantly more expensive bc back then too
You don’t miss those days.
You don’t have to! Pretty much all of those games are available, and you can play them for free if you’re willing to pirate.
But let’s be honest, modern games are better which is why you won’t do this instead.
I’ve tried time and time again to enjoy “modern” games, but nothing released after Oblivion or The Witcher 3 was worth my time.
Plenty of old games however have an extremely high replay value, thanks to their immersive missions and bugfree gameplay. Recently played Thief: The Dark Project again (from 1999), and it’s a bloody masterpiece.
You’re one of the few. Pretty much everyone else complaining about how modern games are bad and the time you speak of was some magical time for gaming, are at the same time only be playing games from the last decade or so.
Having been a game since the early 80s, I would argue gaming is better now than it has ever been. It has its own set of problems, but nothing better than throwing a game I’m interested in into my wishlist, waiting for it to go on deep sale (which happens long after most of those annoying first bugs have been ironed out), checking the reviews at that point, and then downloading if it still looks good.
Generally speaking, games are so much better looking and have the ability to be far more intricate and interesting. Like I played hundreds of hours of civ I. But if I’m going to play civ now, it will be 5 or 6.
Yeah. Good ol’ Pong.
Actually there were update still cause the games were only little less broken. It’s updates were so much harder for everyone. Hosting them, finding them, knowing there were updates, having to apply updates in specific orders.
Steam has been a good send for that.
Maybe I’m just old
Not old enough, heh. The cartridges/CDs this commenter are talking about had to have rock-solid code because patching wasn’t possible. You’d have to make an entire new print run, and very few games of that era ever had those.
And guess what? They still had multiple versions! Ask any Link to the Past speedrunner. 1.0 is broken as hell!
Ya, Nintendo first-party was certainly one of the exceptions. Benefits of your games having ridiculously long tails.
Why do you miss things being permanently broken and unfixable?
The thing is, it forced the people making games to release them as a finished, working product, with the bugs (mostly) stamped out.
Today it’s just push something out the door now, and we’ll
patch itsoak them for even more money with DLC later.
Yes but this comment is generic to the game industry overall, and has been made thousands of times with slightly different wording. I’d rather use this thread to celebrate the rare event of a company admitting a mistake and actually making customers whole.
They’ve basically perfected keeping the community mostly happy by toeing the line between putting out solid base games and putting out greedy DLC.
What we’re now seeing is what happens when you don’t immediately change course after you skimp on making a good base game.
It’s all sheer greed, too. Paradox has fully embraced the model of releasing sequels with less content than their DLC-enhanced previous games after 2K showed the market had tolerance for it with Civilization. Considering how that already puts them ahead of the curve, it’s amazing that Paradox let this game come out in this state.
To be fair, I don’t expect the sequel’s base game to have more content than the previous game with all its DLCs, but I do expect the base game to have at least as much content as the previous game’s base game.
That doesn’t make it sheer greed; it’s what’s feasible to develop. A systems driven game like a city builder or a 4X game mean that you can’t just drag and drop old content in the new systems and expect it to work and look cohesive. Every fighting game launches with fewer characters than the previous version, and it’s not because it’s some conspiracy to delay dropping the SFV characters in SF6; it’s because swapping out the V system for the Drive system is a massive change, and the old characters take a lot of work to port over. Even the art style in Civ 6 is very different from Civ V. When you try to just copy and paste content between two different styles of art direction, you end up with nightmare fuel Chun-Li in Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite.
The base game having less content than its predecessor isn’t the greedy part. It’s the fact that taking advantage of that market inelasticity wasn’t enough for Paradox and judging it acceptable to release a product in this state on top of that.
It’s the kind of decision you make when you run out of cash to keep funding development.
Paradox and Colossal Order have said they literally ran out of cash?
No, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
Everyone ran out of cash in this industry. Investment dried up, and they knew what state their game was shipping in. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong to be upset as a consumer either.
Paradox is extremely healthy.
If we’re both going to be speculating here, I’m going with the more likely consideration for a publisher with record performance. In early August, they saw an early access game get its full release in an unfinished state to massive acclaim and sales (along with similar, larger trends) and decided to test their market with the same.
I don’t even have a dog in this fight; I’m not a city management sim fan. I’m just calling it like it is.
Save for Smash Ultimate
Sure, but that was iterative, like Super Street Fighter II Turbo, as opposed to making Street Fighter III. Wherever they go with Smash from here, it will involve a systems rework and fewer characters.
Wouldn’t say it’s that iterative since most characters play differently from their past versions.
But honestly, I wouldn’t mind less characters in the next game, melee is old as fuck and the meta is still changing with the few characters it has.
The ways that they play differently are a few numbers tweaks and occasionally a new animation. It’s not the difference between Melee and Brawl or 64 and Melee.
We’re riding this wave over in the Total War community too. Broken game, weak and overpriced DLC.
We kicked off (and then all their other games managed to flop at once, so they came crawling back) and now we’ve got a notable amount more effort into the DLC coming at the end of the month, as well as price cuts, refunds and redoing of the bad DLC.
Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t, but I’m seeing positive movements in general on legacy resting-on-laurels games.
The Beach DLC was distasteful, you still can’t even make convincing beaches with the terrain.
I’m very glad Paradox reversed course here. It sounds like they are starting to take seriously what it means to make a finished, solid game. Cities:Skylines fans are tired of half-baked shit.
I’m not convinced Paradox knows what they are doing as publisher. Millenia was similarly pushed out the door before it was ready (though in a better state than Cities: Skylines 2). And both games pushed out the door in the last week of the quarter in a transparent effort to boost their earnings. The shortsightedness of the publisher is now impacting their reputation in ways that will be hard to recover. I no longer consider buying Paradox published titles until they are at least a year old or have at least a few months of reviews showing they are solid (like AoW4).
I feel like maybe Paradox expanded too much too fast.
Smells like stock-price-driven short-term decisions.
Thanks for the tldr :)
City Skylines Team to their fans: We’re sorry. Making good.
George R.R Martin to his fans: Go get fucked.
What’s the scuttlebutt with GRRM?
Refuses to finish next installment of Game Of Thrones — like ten years waiting.
13 years. :)
If he’d just say “It is over, no more books.” people would just move on. But him constantly stating that he’ll publish “next year” for 10 years years or so now is really annoying.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
The Elder Scrolls fans: First time?
It is pretty comparable tbh. It is also the same for Elders scroll fans. Before Skyrim and before A Dance with Dragons both published constantly and both started publishing on the mid 90s, both published 5 times, both started publishing side project stuff.
Elders Scroll fans have it somewhat better though, not depending on a single person, who also isn’t the youngest.
I am also an Elder Scroll fan since Arena btw, so I am quite f…d.
Refuses to finish next installment of Game Of Thrones — like ten years waiting.
His D&D group probably stopped meeting years ago. No new ideas.
(I kid, I kid. Er, I think.)
Chuckled. That was unexpected.
But you should read some of this guy— he’s the most legit… except for this delay.
But you should read some of this guy— he’s the most legit… except for this delay.
I know, I was just going for the comedic route (er, I think :p ). I’ve read his books.
He did finish it we saw it on TV and hated it. So now he’s not gonna do it because he knows no matter what he does we will hate it. He wrote himself into a corner
Yeah I remember some interview or something where he said the show just did a shittier version of the ending he wanted and it kind of killed his drive to finish. Imagine the adaptation being so bad it actually does ruin the source.
He should just plagiarize a few fanfics
Oh, nothing more than that? Yeah, that’s just a man who hasn’t done his job. If he averaged a page a day, he’d have finished years ago.
He made his money. I wonder if he’ll ever have to do his job again.
NGL I wast pretty excited to play Cities Skylines a few years ago, but the EA style DLC market is disgusting.
It’s not the devs who are to blame for this fiasco. The management who pushed for releasing unfinished product is. There were some people sitting in a meeting room who decided that it was a good idea to publish a worthless DLC. Change is needed at management level.
The apology looks like honest but some part of me feels like they are sorry because their strategy for ripping our wallets did not work as expected.
I’m not planning to buy any Paradox game in the future.
Remember they’re just doing damage control. They are still acting in their own interest
thats how most people behave most of the time.
When corporations acting in their best interest also act in the consumers best interest, the system is working as it should.
Intent matters for individuals, not for societal systems like governments and corporations. Incompetent governments/corporations need to be removed just as much as evil ones.
Rather, they’re not sorry they tried to scam you, they’re sorry it didn’t work.
That’s what every apology is.
That’s not true. Intent matters, accidents do happen.
Stellaris optimization update, when?
NEVER!
I did not even know that a DLC came out. I am sure I would have if it was good news because streamers I follow would have tested it.
But it is so sad. I really liked cities skylines because it basically is what I wanted from sim city. But with a million mods it would always break at certain points and force me to stop playing. I had such high hopes with 2 but seeing this game at launch and now seemingly still broken is so… well I am not really sure how I (should) feel.
The good thing is, that I do not have to keep reading and researching but rather wait for some “news” to pop up in my feed again. So I can get back to forgetting about it.
Meanwhile, Indie games: Yeah, we fixed the wonky balancing with that super niche strategy and we’re working on 3 new DLCs (all free, btw)
This team has been making the exact same game for multiple decades. Look at this developer’s game history. It is literally the same exact game redeveloped over and over every few years and then they repackage and resell the same DLCs for the new versions. What a con of a game dev.
13 years since Cities in Motion 1 is not multiple decades, and Cities in Motion 1 is in no way the same game as Cities Skylines
So you think they’ve been making entirely new games for their entire existence? You don’t think it’s conny at all that literally all they do is make city builders and sell DLCs and then make a new one when interest dries up? Doesn’t seem very creative or innovative in my opinion it sounds like pure capitalism. Publisher is a microcosm EA.
That’s not a con, that’s someone perfecting their art.
Oh so Cities II is better than 1 across the board? And the Hobbit movies were better than lotr? I feel like you’re being a tad naive.
