Obviously I can understand why mysoginists are hated upon, As their belief is all women are trash or men are superior etc. But why are incels also generally hated upon? They are lacking in a way that makes them unable to gey in a relationship, but that shouldn’t necessarily mean they are mysoginists, right?
What am I missing here? I haven’t ever had a relationship with a woman, but I don’t hate all women either. I just consider myself unlucky. Does that make me an incel?
Im pretty sure an incel blames women for not being able to get a relationship.
Its the change in mental framing from “maybe i should work on myself” or “i just havent had the right opportunity” to more of a “women hold too much power over me and are playing with me” or “ive done everything right, women owe me this”Wikipedia sums it up better than i can:
Description of incels
The subculture is often characterized by deep resentment, hatred, hostility, sexual objectification, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, blaming of women and the sexually successful for their situation (which is often seen as predetermined due to biological determinism, evolutionary genetics or a rigged game), a sense of futility and nihilism, rape culture, and the endorsement of sexual and nonsexual violence against women and sexually active people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
So, unless you find yourself blaming/resenting women, then you arent an incel. Your still just figuring things out like tge rest of us!
I am in a similar situation as you, I am 36 and have never been in a relationship, I don’t blame anyone, I am a bit sad about it when I think of it, but I can’t blame anyone for it, it is just circumstances.
I think that “incels” are defined by their feeling that they deserve a relationship with a woman, that they are being denied what they believe is rightfully theirs and that by just being polite they can convince a woman to fall into their arms.
I don’t concider myself an incel, for me based on circumstances if anything I have choosen to not persue a relationship, there are reasons for this, late maturity, being overweight, balding, concern for if I would find a woman who would be fine with me having zero experience in both day to day things as well as intimite moments.
But these are all problems that I have to work on, and I do my best with the tools I have.
Fwiw, about the zéro expérience thing, I hope you know that plenty of women would enjoy helping their partner explore how to share pleasure and day to day intimacy with them. Being inexperienced and realistic about it also means you won’t have that overconfidence that leads some men to disregard their partner’s personal likes, needs and body quirks, and that can be a very reassuring premise.
Source : this old crone was that woman once.
That is a very good point I had not considered, thank you!
The term “Incel” started out as just meaning “involuntarily celibate”, referring to men who, like you and I, have struggled to form meaningful relationships with women.
The term actually originated in forums that were used as like a support group for men who were feeling alone, isolated, and alienated.
Unfortunately, if you get enough guys like that together, they might start riling eachother up and convincing each other that it’s not their fault, it’s the women’s fault. Remember, the one common trait among all these guys was a lack of ability to connect with a woman.
The word was coined by a woman and the support network she set up was for men and women. Until the space got taken over by bitter men blaming women for all their troubles and, here we are.
Hey, I don’t struggle to get meaningful relationships! Getting laid tho is a different case sadly
“Incel” doesn’t just mean someone who is involuntarily celibate.
It’s a bit like how “Democrat” doesn’t just mean someone who participates in a democracy and “pro-life” doesn’t just mean someone who likes life on earth.
Incels are a specific subculture, it has a violent misogynistic ideology and has spawned several mass murderers.
Based on that last bit of your post, it sounds like you may actually not be that familiar with the incel community.
Short answer is that it goes much further than it seems at first glance. So,if you’re feeling unhappy about your prospects, I’d recommend looking into other communities for the sake of your mental health.
Honestly, just focusing on a hobby of some kind and making connections with the community surrounding it would be infinitely better for you.
I haven’t ever had a relationship with a woman, but I don’t hate all women either. I just consider myself unlucky. Does that make me an incel?
No, if you don’t hate women you’re not an incel.
An “incel” is inherently and unavoidably misogynistic. The concept of being “involuntarily” celibate is implying that it is the other woman (or man) at “fault” for not allowing the incel man (or woman) to have sex when the incel very much wants to. Being an “incel” absolves the user of the term of any and all responsibility for their condition and is basically an admission that they will never work to improve themselves or make themselves into an attractive option for their desired mate. It turns their target into a complete sexual object without any other considerations for their own desires.
You can be single and celibate without being an incel. That is just called being single, but open to a relationship or casual sex. It’s also called being a normal ass human being who can hold a conversation and develop normal human connections without viewing anyone or everyone as just a slab of meat to be obtained.
Great answer, and to add to this:
There’s a world of difference between someone who’s single, not satisfied with it, and actively desiring/seeking a relationship (single and looking) and someone who actively self-identifies as inherently doomed to be single due to the actions/perceptions of others (incel).
People in the former category NEVER call themselves incels.
I feel that your second sentence is too narrow. It goes beyond blaming a woman (or man). It includes society in general and/or any external construct or group. They may blame genetics, the patriarchy, feminism, or whatever other Boogeyman they want.
The underlying issue is that they are absolving themselves of any blame and refusing to accept themselves as the cause. It’s unsurprising that this very concept is often a self perpetuating issue. Their incel mentality and refusal of accepting any responsibility pushes any potential women (or men) from a desire to be in a relationship with them. It also builds an “us vs them” mentality that is reinforced by the echo chamber communities they build for themselves.
Exactly. The issue with incels is that they actively do nothing to improve their chances in the dating world, and then instead of looking inward, blame women for their own shortcomings. “I’m a stupid moron with an ugly face and big butt and my butt smells and… women should still want to fuck me because I’m owed sex.”
Fuck these people.
Does that make me an incel?
Nope, it’s become a self identification ascribed to. Only defining feature of an imcel now is saying “I’m an incel”
And it happens to be that said communities are jam packed full of some extreme bigotry, hate, loathing, misogynistic behavior, etc etc.
Which means a person who identifies themselves with that crowd, can be assumed to be of the same cut of cloth.
In other words, a person like you would likely say “I haven’t been with a woman but I ain’t no incel though”, to signal you don’t identify with that culture.
The hatred of women from them.
You’ve already had some great answers, but I’ll just leave another point here for you to consider - they are literal terrorists.
Not one, but several have used their “inceldom” in their manifestos before going on mass shootings (often targeting, or trying to target women exclusively) and many other shooters were active members of incel forums (and many active incel forum users who still haven’t gone on a shooting spree openly talk about going on one).
I will strongly second whenigrowup356 - stay as far away from these people and their spaces as possible, they are toxic violent terrorists, and you should not only not want anything to do with them, but also not let them convince you to feel sorry for them, because as opposed to what they call themselves, the state they are in is anything but “involuntary”.
Originally, the label wasn’t bad. However, it turns out a lot of pathetic people out there fall into the same description and suddenly the traits they brought along with them shifted the understanding of the words meaning.
Originally it was simply a way for lonely men to get encouragement from their fellow lonely men, hence the “involuntary” part of it all is that they don’t want to be in their situation. However, with the evolution of the term and all the d-bags that jumped on it, it now means something almost completely different—certainly not something involuntary, that’s for sure.
basically it became it’s own sub-culture instead of just being a situational label.
The framing of it as involuntary from the get go was misguided even if the subculture started off apparently innocent. It’s a blame shifting phrase and implies that some outside force is responsible for said celibacy like it’s happening to them or being perpetrated by women.
It’s not surprising at all in light of the above, that they hit critical mass and have become legitimately violent. It was a matter of time. The ideology is inherently toxic.
While the incel movement may have seemed to be just some men who found community in others who haven’t been in a relationship, something rather innocuous. It very quickly got hijacked into what it is today. It went from “I haven’t been with a woman yet but I’m still looking and in the mean time i have my friends” to “It’s women’s fault that I haven’t been with one and they use sex for power and are horrible people” and it devolved into worse things from there. The incel community was preyed upon by misogynist far right fascist and nazis. They were assaulted with propaganda in their communities, a place they had finally found that they were comfortable in. And when you are around those you care about, and they start espousing bigoted beliefs, some start to agree with it, and then most of them fall for it. It’s not unreasonable to want community. Everyone wants that. But the incel community quickly became a community of people who hated that they were virgins and were willing to take their anger out on others. Particularly women identifying individuals.
You say they are lacking in a way they can’t get women, I don’t think is wrong. They really haven’t been taught well by our society how to interact with women. They’re trying to get into a relationship using what they’ve been taught, but they’re floundering, reasonably, because society has taught them to view women as sex objects. Incels as a movement are a failure of our society, a failure of us teaching our kids how to act around others, including the gender they’re attracted to.
I’m not nearly read up enough to give you much more information, but if you want, there’s a book called Escape from Incel Island by Margaret Killjoy. It’s really good and helps explain things far more eloquently and fully than me, a random lemmy user can.
Also, never having been in a relationship doesn’t make you an incel, it just makes you someone who hasn’t experienced that yet. And that’s okay, we all grow at different speeds, it’s okay to not having been with someone. We attach way too much to the idea of being with your first person. It’s important to be able to respect and care about yourself somewhat before getting in a relationship, and it’s okay if that takes a while. I didn’t have that experience until my mid 20s, but it didn’t make me any less of a person. Just remember to respect yourself, and to respect the others around you. And also don’t treat women like sex objects, we are just humans, like any other. And there are 100% multiple people out there who will be interested in you, even if it takes a while to find one. I know you’ll find someone, especially considering you’re asking this question. You’re willing to ask about tough topics and that is something a lot of people can’t do. So good on you.
Just remember to respect yourself, and to respect the others around you. And also don’t treat women like sex objects, we are just humans, like any other. And there are 100% multiple people out there who will be interested in you, even if it takes a while to find one.
This is not true for everyone. Meeting new people is difficult, especially when you’re older. Add to that several (mental) health issues that mean actually going on a date would be practically impossible. Even getting past that, I wouldn’t be able to give a woman the life she deserves.
I don’t blame anyone, I wouldn’t date me either. Can I do things to improve myself? Sure, but not enough for it to matter, the real fundamental problems will remain. Why waste effort on things that give no return on investment?
I generally agree with your comment, but this
They really haven’t been taught well by our society how to interact with women. They’re trying to get into a relationship using what they’ve been taught, but they’re floundering, reasonably, because society has taught them to view women as sex objects.
I think is wrong.
The whole problem is that the patriarchy absolutely teaches (especially white) men that women are objects, and that men are entitled to women and sex (but that only virginal women are worthy of marriage).
Some men unlearn this shit early on, some remain “neutral” assholes (those who will end up abusing but aren’t doing it consciously out of ideology, but still from the same sense of entitlement), and some take the entitlement to the extreme and adopt it as their ideology and way of life, but I think it’s really fucking important to highlight that they are in fact not taught anything different by society before that point, they just take their entitlement to another level once they’ve found others to confirm it for them.Either way, the name is a complete misnomer - they aren’t “involuntarily” celibate, they are celibate because they actively refuse to not be walking entitled pieces of shit.
Terrorism and mass murder. I actually lived near one, a van attack in Toronto.
Hold the fuck on. What?!
There was also Elliot Rodgers or something like that. He was an incel who wrote a manifesto about how the world screwed him over his entire life and drove him to inceldom. So then he went on a killing spree targetting women, then killed himself.
Oh I know about that one. I just wasn’t aware of the Van Attack. Should have been more precise.
Must be this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Toronto_van_attack
The attack is characterized as misogynist terrorism because it was motivated by revenge for perceived sexual and social rejection by women. At the time of his arrest, Minassian described himself as an incel to the police and in prior social media postings, and described the attack as the continuation of an “incel rebellion”, started by the late Elliot Rodger.[11]
Sorry for the mobile Wikipedia link.
What’s the what? Go Google it
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Do you call yourself an incel? Do you subscribe to their beliefs that they are entitled to sex and superior to women? Do you blame women for all of your problems? If not then you are not an incel. Just unlucky.
