As somebody who lives in a country that spends over the NATO agreed 2%, and for whom Russia is very threatening, I’m not entirely unhappy about what Trump is saying about European defence. We do need to put in more effort. Another thing is what he’ll actual do.
i dunno about finland, but the baltics seem like they’re a single bad morning’s commute from shelling their russian minorities… just the vibe i’m gettings…
It seems wanting to join NATO is enough for Russia to be threatening, if they consider one’s country to be in Russia’s sphere of influence. See for instance Georgia (2008) and indeed Ukraine (2014/2022).
NATO is a hostile military alliance formed for the sole purpose of destroying the Soviet Union. It did not go away when that purpose was achieved, but continued to creep closer to the USSR’s main successor state despite assurances that it would not. In this post-USSR period it has undertaken multiple purely offensive actions (the former Yugoslavia and Libya come to mind). It also invaded Afghanistan as a response to 9/11, despite none of the hijackers being from Afghanistan, and despite the Afghan government offering to turn over bin Laden. Then you have the puppetmaster of NATO invading Iraq on completely false pretenses, and generally running a wide-ranging assassination program all over the world.
What nations are allowed to have their own interests, and act to secure those interests? Is that something only for the U.S. and (when the U.S. allows it) its allies? Or is it possible that some countries have legitimate interests that conflict with the U.S.?
If you think the Russian Federation and the USSR are remotely comparable, you’re smoking crack. NATO won, and the depraved, neoliberal regime it replaced the USSR with is its own God damned fault.
NATO won, and the depraved, neoliberal regime it replaced the USSR with is its own God damned fault.
I don’t think USSR became what anyone in the west wanted it to become. It’s nowhere near neoliberal, for one, more like a mafia state.
If you think the Russian Federation and the USSR are remotely comparable
Oh no, I don’t. The Russian Federation is much worse. Just saying that we didn’t really “destroy” them in the same way as, for instance, Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan was destroyed in WW2.
I don’t think USSR became what anyone in the west wanted it to become.
Who is Yeltsin?
It’s nowhere near neoliberal, for one, more like a mafia state.
Technically it quickly became something closer to classically liberal rather than neoliberal (as the imperial core shunned it) but to claim that liberalism is opposed to mafiosi is hilarious, it has never existed without them. It’s like saying liberalism is opposed to slavery, there is some vacuous sense in which you could use sophistry to push that angle, but when you look at real, historic manifestations of liberal states, they are heavily economically reliant on various forms of slavery, whether domestic or via their dogs in the third world.
I don’t know about propaganda, but sometimes reality can be motivating. Here’s one piece of it: https://yle.fi/a/74-20050548
Not sure if the current government is doing a good job with tackling this, though. Somehow even with the frugality they’re claiming they’re doing (pretty minimal actions really), the loan amounts are still growing. But these things don’t change fast.
goddamn man it’s actually so fucking stupid to be fearful of Russia in Finland.
Yes, Russia, the state still grinding it out in Ukraine 2 years down the line, is suddenly going to invade Finland and trigger a war with the entire western world so they can uhhhhh steal Finland’s lovely lakes. You piss me off
Finland has been in NATO for less than a year. Before that we had a war in which USSR tried to take over the whole country and after failing at that, hovered over us for 50 years before collapsing.
But if you’re saying that we shouldn’t anymore be afraid of them now that we’re in NATO, perhaps you’re right. We’ll still need to be cognizant of the fact that Russia is our only potential enemy on this planet.
But Russia is in the wrong for thinking NATO existing next to them is a threat.
Why is it OK when you say it but bad when they do? If you’re encouraging others to put themselves in your shoes (“you had to be there”), why can’t you put yourself in Russia’s shoes and see how they could reasonably perceive NATO as a threat?
I’m not actually saying that Russia just existing close to us is a threat. I’m saying that what Russia is doing and how it’s behaving, and how it talks publically is a threat.
But I do understand how NATO might be viewed as a threat to some nations or world leaders. I don’t immediately remember any particurarily good (liberal, free, non-oppressive, democratic) nations that NATO poses a risk to, however. Perhaps you can refresh my memory.
I’m not actually saying that Russia just existing close to us is a threat.
That’s exactly what you said, although you said it about the USSR, which was even more absurd.
I don’t immediately remember any particurarily good (liberal, free, non-oppressive, democratic) nations that NATO poses a risk to, however. Perhaps you can refresh my memory.
So clever to fall back on the “well if I did do it, they deserved it” defense.
Do you think the people of Libya, a country you’d say deserved it, prefer their country after the NATO attack on it? They went from one of the highest (if not the highest) living standards on the continent to a decade of civil war and open-air slave markets.
I don’t think I was being very clever there, but I’ll take it!
Do you think the people of Libya, a country you’d say deserved it, prefer their country after the NATO attack on it? They went from one of the highest (if not the highest) living standards on the continent to a decade of civil war and open-air slave markets.
Gaddafi’s Libya didn’t seem to fit any of liberal, free, non-oppressive or democratic. I think we also have to note that that intervention was based on a UN Security Council resolution, which no member (not even Russia or China) opposed. So not really a NATO operation exclusively.
Libya went from bad to worse as a consequence though, about that you’re not wrong.
These things happen to axis powers during WW2, yes. Perhaps the white Finn government shouldn’t have slaughtered its own people, joined with Hitler, kept Russian people in concentration camps, and participated in the seige of Leningrad.
Perhaps the white Finn government shouldn’t have slaughtered its own people
Yeah well civil wars are a bitch. It’s difficult to say for sure, but I’m pretty sure if the Reds had won that one, a similar or worse slaughtering would have taken place. At least it happened in every other place where the communists won a civil war.
joined with Hitler, kept Russian people in concentration camps, and participated in the seige of Leningrad.
I have to point out that when USSR first attacked Finland (Winter War), we were not yet allied with Hitler. USSR was actually enacting a secret deal[0] they had made with Hitler about the division of East Europe.
The things you mentioned happened during the Continuation War, for which I think we were rightfully punished.
“Uhh well the people we slaughtered totally would have done worse, despite the fact that we were allied with the Nazis and they were against them”
Great little bit of projection my man
The things you mentioned happened during
So you admit you’re cool with concentration camps
muh molotov ribbertropf
Not sure why libs think this is some kind of trump card, but I never get tired of watching them whip it out thinking it will be like holy water to a vampire. Why yes, the USSR was forced to buy itself time to fend off lebensraum by itself after a decade of the other “allies” rejecting it’s defensive treaties and handing Hitler Czechoslovakia on a silver platter. It used that bought time to evacuate 7 million Jewish people from Poland. Say, what was white Finland doing with it’s Jewish people around then?
For which I think we were rightfully punished
I do not take the word of fascist’s descendants about whether or not they have been rightfully punished. The many thousands of working Finns who your government disappeared, tortured, raped, massacred, and dumped in ditches for the crime of wanting a better life would be a better authority on that.
That you still sit there and bloviate about “well they would have done the same to us, probably!” Is the most naked fascist cope at your dogshit country being called out for what it has become, and proof positive that no, you were not punished enough.
Lmao that’s the weakest shit. “Sure we helped starve Leningrad and worked with the people who did the Holocaust, but look, some commies blew up a single synagogue during combat! This proves that we were right to massacre thousands and work with fascists, actually.”
How do you type that out and fight off the embarrassment long enough to hit post? Long practice, I guess. Defending fascists tends to put you in the clown shoes time and time again.
Ok, so disregard that part if you wish. Finland was doing nothing to its jewish population during Winter War. After the alliance, we sent 8 jews who had fled from Germany back, 7 of whom were murdered in concentration camps, and then some 80 from prisoners of war who were jews. These were shitty actions, but also we blocked the deportations of many more. Specifically, exactly 0 Finnish jews were deported to Germany even though this was demanded from us.
We should really have a great firewall to keep all of us inside it, the psychic damage a single fucking finn can inflict on the internet is insane
smol bean finland never done did no wrong uwu, is not like we were sucking the boot of the nazis even before they took over germany no no no, evil commies bad owo
As somebody who lives in a country that spends over the NATO agreed 2%, and for whom Russia is very threatening, I’m not entirely unhappy about what Trump is saying about European defence. We do need to put in more effort. Another thing is what he’ll actual do.
Wow, which region of Russian-speakers is your country’s armed forces bombing? Because that’s what it takes for Russia to be “”“threatening”“”.
i dunno about finland, but the baltics seem like they’re a single bad morning’s commute from shelling their russian minorities… just the vibe i’m gettings…
When arent they one bad morning to reenacting what their grandparents did during ww2?
It seems wanting to join NATO is enough for Russia to be threatening, if they consider one’s country to be in Russia’s sphere of influence. See for instance Georgia (2008) and indeed Ukraine (2014/2022).
NATO is a hostile military alliance formed for the sole purpose of destroying the Soviet Union. It did not go away when that purpose was achieved, but continued to creep closer to the USSR’s main successor state despite assurances that it would not. In this post-USSR period it has undertaken multiple purely offensive actions (the former Yugoslavia and Libya come to mind). It also invaded Afghanistan as a response to 9/11, despite none of the hijackers being from Afghanistan, and despite the Afghan government offering to turn over bin Laden. Then you have the puppetmaster of NATO invading Iraq on completely false pretenses, and generally running a wide-ranging assassination program all over the world.
I wouldn’t want NATO near me, either.
Somehow it doesn’t currently seem like it was achieved.
Lmao what?
What nations are allowed to have their own interests, and act to secure those interests? Is that something only for the U.S. and (when the U.S. allows it) its allies? Or is it possible that some countries have legitimate interests that conflict with the U.S.?
Is Ukraine allowed that?
Legitimate national interests don’t include attacking ethnic minorities, which is a major cause of the current war dating back to the early 2010s.
There’s also a question of what “national interest” means when the U.S. coups your elected government, as it did to Ukraine in 2014.
Does there exist proof that it was a US coup?
I don’t know, why don’t you ask the Americans who replaced their government for them?
If you think the Russian Federation and the USSR are remotely comparable, you’re smoking crack. NATO won, and the depraved, neoliberal regime it replaced the USSR with is its own God damned fault.
I don’t think USSR became what anyone in the west wanted it to become. It’s nowhere near neoliberal, for one, more like a mafia state.
Oh no, I don’t. The Russian Federation is much worse. Just saying that we didn’t really “destroy” them in the same way as, for instance, Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan was destroyed in WW2.
Who is Yeltsin?
Technically it quickly became something closer to classically liberal rather than neoliberal (as the imperial core shunned it) but to claim that liberalism is opposed to mafiosi is hilarious, it has never existed without them. It’s like saying liberalism is opposed to slavery, there is some vacuous sense in which you could use sophistry to push that angle, but when you look at real, historic manifestations of liberal states, they are heavily economically reliant on various forms of slavery, whether domestic or via their dogs in the third world.
Oh also
What is “Abkhazia”?
I didn’t expect the state propaganda campaign to convince their people to accept welfare cuts and to embrace austerity to work this well.
Oh let 'em go, let 'em tarry
Sink or let 'em swim
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Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I don’t know about propaganda, but sometimes reality can be motivating. Here’s one piece of it: https://yle.fi/a/74-20050548
Not sure if the current government is doing a good job with tackling this, though. Somehow even with the frugality they’re claiming they’re doing (pretty minimal actions really), the loan amounts are still growing. But these things don’t change fast.
Agreed
goddamn man it’s actually so fucking stupid to be fearful of Russia in Finland.
Yes, Russia, the state still grinding it out in Ukraine 2 years down the line, is suddenly going to invade Finland and trigger a war with the entire western world so they can uhhhhh steal Finland’s lovely lakes. You piss me off
Finland has been in NATO for less than a year. Before that we had a war in which USSR tried to take over the whole country and after failing at that, hovered over us for 50 years before collapsing.
But if you’re saying that we shouldn’t anymore be afraid of them now that we’re in NATO, perhaps you’re right. We’ll still need to be cognizant of the fact that Russia is our only potential enemy on this planet.
“Their mere existence is a threat”
“They’re just existing there…Russianly!”
I guess you had to be there.
Think about what you’re saying.
Why is it OK when you say it but bad when they do? If you’re encouraging others to put themselves in your shoes (“you had to be there”), why can’t you put yourself in Russia’s shoes and see how they could reasonably perceive NATO as a threat?
I’m not actually saying that Russia just existing close to us is a threat. I’m saying that what Russia is doing and how it’s behaving, and how it talks publically is a threat.
But I do understand how NATO might be viewed as a threat to some nations or world leaders. I don’t immediately remember any particurarily good (liberal, free, non-oppressive, democratic) nations that NATO poses a risk to, however. Perhaps you can refresh my memory.
Removed by mod
That’s exactly what you said, although you said it about the USSR, which was even more absurd.
So clever to fall back on the “well if I did do it, they deserved it” defense.
Do you think the people of Libya, a country you’d say deserved it, prefer their country after the NATO attack on it? They went from one of the highest (if not the highest) living standards on the continent to a decade of civil war and open-air slave markets.
I don’t think I was being very clever there, but I’ll take it!
Gaddafi’s Libya didn’t seem to fit any of liberal, free, non-oppressive or democratic. I think we also have to note that that intervention was based on a UN Security Council resolution, which no member (not even Russia or China) opposed. So not really a NATO operation exclusively.
Libya went from bad to worse as a consequence though, about that you’re not wrong.
These things happen to axis powers during WW2, yes. Perhaps the white Finn government shouldn’t have slaughtered its own people, joined with Hitler, kept Russian people in concentration camps, and participated in the seige of Leningrad.
Yeah well civil wars are a bitch. It’s difficult to say for sure, but I’m pretty sure if the Reds had won that one, a similar or worse slaughtering would have taken place. At least it happened in every other place where the communists won a civil war.
I have to point out that when USSR first attacked Finland (Winter War), we were not yet allied with Hitler. USSR was actually enacting a secret deal[0] they had made with Hitler about the division of East Europe.
The things you mentioned happened during the Continuation War, for which I think we were rightfully punished.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact
“Uhh well the people we slaughtered totally would have done worse, despite the fact that we were allied with the Nazis and they were against them”
Great little bit of projection my man
So you admit you’re cool with concentration camps
Not sure why libs think this is some kind of trump card, but I never get tired of watching them whip it out thinking it will be like holy water to a vampire. Why yes, the USSR was forced to buy itself time to fend off lebensraum by itself after a decade of the other “allies” rejecting it’s defensive treaties and handing Hitler Czechoslovakia on a silver platter. It used that bought time to evacuate 7 million Jewish people from Poland. Say, what was white Finland doing with it’s Jewish people around then?
I do not take the word of fascist’s descendants about whether or not they have been rightfully punished. The many thousands of working Finns who your government disappeared, tortured, raped, massacred, and dumped in ditches for the crime of wanting a better life would be a better authority on that.
That you still sit there and bloviate about “well they would have done the same to us, probably!” Is the most naked fascist cope at your dogshit country being called out for what it has become, and proof positive that no, you were not punished enough.
At the time of the Winter War? Nothing, I think? USSR destroyed a synagogue in bombings in Wiborg, though.
Lmao that’s the weakest shit. “Sure we helped starve Leningrad and worked with the people who did the Holocaust, but look, some commies blew up a single synagogue during combat! This proves that we were right to massacre thousands and work with fascists, actually.”
How do you type that out and fight off the embarrassment long enough to hit post? Long practice, I guess. Defending fascists tends to put you in the clown shoes time and time again.
Ok, so disregard that part if you wish. Finland was doing nothing to its jewish population during Winter War. After the alliance, we sent 8 jews who had fled from Germany back, 7 of whom were murdered in concentration camps, and then some 80 from prisoners of war who were jews. These were shitty actions, but also we blocked the deportations of many more. Specifically, exactly 0 Finnish jews were deported to Germany even though this was demanded from us.
Oh no! Don’t massacre all of the antisemites and fascists in my nation!
Comrades, I sincerely apologize for any psychic damage taken from being exposed to my fellow countryman’s takes
imagine not knowing that the wrong side won the civil war
We should really have a great firewall to keep all of us inside it, the psychic damage a single fucking finn can inflict on the internet is insane
smol bean finland never done did no wrong uwu, is not like we were sucking the boot of the nazis even before they took over germany no no no, evil commies bad owo