• SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    12
    arrow-down
    8
    ·
    1 year ago

    For most people, I think that the problem isn’t with Hamas being held responsible. The problem is that people bearing the brunt of Hamas’ and Israeli actions aren’t members of Hamas - they’remedical personnel and patients and civilians in general.

    • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      German people in WW2 weren’t all nazis. Some of those non-nazi germans were hurt, which was ultimately a tragic thing, but the responsibility for their deaths lies primarily with the nazis.

      Edit It’s impressive that everyone’s able to agree with this thought but get very confused when “nazis” is replaced with “hamas” and “German people” with “Palestinian people”

      • cannache@slrpnk.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Just like in this case when you’re an Israeli and you’re in government you have been given power. Power and authority is a gift, with strings attached. Your paystub and government funded car and badge is not a whore to be abused.

      • SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        17
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        Of course they are. Why else would you set up in a hospital? Doing so (turning hospital into a command post or using a marked ambulance to transport fighters or weapons) is against international law. If it is true that Hamas is doing that in these exact examples and not merely as a general practice), those buildings and vehicles are legal military targets. I was in the business and I’m familiar with all of the arguments and justifications.

        What it comes down to, legally, is whether the response was proportional to the threat and whether every attempt was made to restrict damage to civilian infrastructure and persons. Just as a hypothetical example, using an F-16 to drop two bombs on a populated hospital because there’s a couple of snipers on the 6th floor would be a disproportionate response. Using a rocket propelled grenade against that window/room is more proportional, even if there were patients in the same room. Killing them with counter-sniper fire so as to save those patients but still eliminate the threat is the most proportional.

        The other dimension, though, is the moral culpability (if you believe in free will) or at least the functional responsibility (if you do not) of designing and launching an operation in which massive amounts of civilian casualties and misery will be caused. I don’t see that enough.

        I think it was Aquinas who laid out one of the early versions of just war theory. One of the main points is that the intended outcome must be proportional to the harms caused.

        What people are questioning is whether a particular encounter or the operation in general were necessary and proportional.

        • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          11
          arrow-down
          13
          ·
          1 year ago

          I appreciate the well reasoned response. Whether this is an appropriate or balanced response from Israel, I don’t really know, but I’m tired of everyone demanding they be the bigger people, and completely ignoring the actions of Hamas.

          • SilentStorms@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            9
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            You’re ignoring the massive power imbalance. You expect people to cast out blame to 2 equal sides, when that really isn’t the case. Isreal as a so-called democratic nationstate should be held to a higher standard than a band of extremists.