I don’t remember what caused the Voat’s origin, except it involved Reddit HQ. And then it went under in 2020.
What’s different about this time and with Lemmy to make it a feasible alternative to Reddit? Is it random chance?
Unlike that exodus, the Lemmigration isn’t for censorship and freedom of speech issues (inevitably drawing in the most toxic, bigoted and hateful section of Reddit to voat); it’s because of reduced accessibility and usability, alongside the visible contempt that Reddit’s administration has for their users (free content providers) and moderators (free content curators).
This means the people fleeing Reddit’s shores aren’t doing so because they want to recreate fatpeoplehate elsewhere; it’s because Reddit won’t let blind people moderate their own communities.
Voat died because they took a max free speech approach, even allowing racism and stuff. Lemmy does not have a central administration that can make decisions like that, as each instance gets to decide if they federate with another instance or not.
There’s no doubt going to be a banlist that gets shared amongst the biggest, most popular instances to get rid of the trolls.
On top of that, Voat got their main population-spike around the time reddit was cracking down on racist and extremist subreddits, so those are the type of users who shaped the culture of Voat. Lemmy, on the other hand, is getting their population spike from enthusiast users, I.E. the 10% of people most responsible for voting, commenting, posting, and just in general contributing to the site. Therefore, those are the people shaping the growing culture of Lemmy, doing so in a mostly positive way.
There is a phenomenon known as the “Eternal September”. In the earliest internet, the vast majority of internet users were college student. Therefore, every September when freshmen started school, the online communities would get a massive influx of new users; These new users were often poorly behaved or disruptive to the culture of the communities, but over time they would acclimate to the local culture and become just more normal users, and things would settle back to normal. This was known as the “September Effect”.
And then one year the internet started gaining small mainstream attention, and suddenly these chatrooms were being constantly flooded with new, ill-behaved users all the time; And because this “September” never ended, the culture of these communities ended up being washed away by the new people, and irreversibly changed forever; hence the “Eternal September”.
The moral of the story, too many new people to a community too fast can overrun the existing cultural dynamic, and so either you need to be restrained in how quickly you let new people join so they can gradually assimilate, or you need the people joining to already share the same culture you desire.
Plus the kinds of people that migrated to Voat were… Not good people. IIRC, it was particularly the banning of FatPeopleHate that got many to move to Voat. The kind of people who’d quit a website because they said to stop harassing people for being fat are not good people. By comparison, this time, we’re migrating because Reddit is being disrespectful towards frankly all their users, but also particularly mods and the visibility impaired.
Voat died because they took a max free speech approach, even allowing racism and stuff.
It cannot be stressed enough how core this was to Voat’s identity, and also how much it poisoned the entire platform. When even objecting to bigotry is against the ethos of the site then there’s no way to build a healthy community, much less an inclusive one.
Also if anyone is curious how much of a cesspool Voat became, here’s the most “upvoated” for the month just six months before the site shut down. Warning: lots of bigotry.
Holy shit, that’s bad. Who would want to be liable for hosting deplorable stuff like that?
I need to take warnings a lot more seriously on this site. That’s the second time I disregarded a warning and hate myself for it.
I remember when voat happened, I only wish it took more of Reddit (and maybe a ceo) with it.
I only had to read the post title before noping out. Jfc that’s bad.
Same. I don’t even understand how you can hold such comically evil fucking viewpoints… Like, Disney villains aren’t that atrocious.
Voat was also competing with reddit during a period of growth by appealing to the more toxic elements of the communities. There wasn’t enough of them to sustain an entire service and remain solvent, and they didn’t bring anything new to the experience. It was just a reddit clone.
The big difference now is that reddit corp has decided to alienate a severe chunk of their userbase.
I also suspect there were a lot of people who wanted to be part of certain communities, but weren’t thrilled with the reddit format. There just wasn’t anything else.
Those users are now open to alternatives like Lemmy, or Discord or another federated service. Reminds me of IRC in the 90s. If you got bored of efnet, connect to another network.
Yeah, I see people advocating for that here, but the truth is that most people don’t want to deal with constant hate and trolls. People want to feel welcome in a community.
It turns out that people stop valuing things like “free speech” and “tolerance” when people try to use those values to force them to tolerate assholes.
It wasn’t “even allowing racism and stuff”. It was created pretty much solely to be a safe space for assholes.
Turns out that doesn’t keep the lights running.
The first big migration happened to Voat when fatpeoplehate was banned.
I don’t know, I was there in the beginning. I think it died because it had no real content, compared to reddit. And, all anyone talked about was reddit, or reposted stuff from reddit, just like we’re seeing here. I think this might stick a bit better because reddit is way bigger than it was back then, so even if the same super small % of users came over, it would still be quite a bit more content.
For comparison of how negligible all the Lemmy fediverse is, there are ~40k active users this month. Reddit has over 50 million active users. So, that’s around 0.1% of reddit users. Literally 99.9% of reddit are not here.
I think it’s probably doomed. It’ll never overtake reddit. But, it’ll be a nice, quiet, alternative.
edit: Here’s a quick litmus test for all the downvoters (I guess “correct” answers only here!). How many times have you gone to reddit today?
edit: I was part of this attempted migration, not the hate one. This isn’t the first blackout for reddit being shitty.
edit: I humbly apologize for my personal, speculative, opinion about the unknowable future. The downvotes have made me realize my math was wrong, my opinion is wrong, and I am wrong. My corrected opinion is that Lemmy will overtake Meta, Mastadon, Twitter, and Google (wtf is reddit!?), and every upvote will be worth $1000, making everyone rich! Or, we can have fun guessing, and wait and see how things go. I hope they go well!
tbh the culture here is reddit in its purest form right now. once they start sanitizing everything here again I’m out. One opinion allowed ONLY and if you dont align you’re a NAZI and FAR RIGHT TROLL
I’m seeing red whistles and hearing dog flags coming from you! Am I doing it right?
Perfect. ‘Downvote’ me too so you can really show it to me how WRONG I am.
If you want to see what happens if this culture permeates here just look at Mastodon. Negative growth, barely any interaction and it’s the same few people shouting into the void. I checked some mutuals who proudly announced they’d move to Mastodon and most haven’t posted anything this year. Still posting regularly on Twitter tho :clownface:
A lot of users here are the same, ‘move’ here to show they’re protesting and then stop posting in a few weeks or months and back to reddit.
Some clown mod made over 50 magazines/subs on kbin. Hasnt posted 1 comment since a little over a week. Bio reads: ‘Proud owner of xxx communities.’ lolIf there is no unique culture/point to this platform and it’s just reddit 2.0 then people will simply go back to reddit.
Having been called fascist, troll, sealion, and all manner of insults because I dared disagree – Yeah, you’re totally right.
People gotta learn to deal with speech they dislike or disagree with. That’s the beauty of democracy.
The strength of the fediverse is that there can be a right wing fediverse, a left wing fediverse, a centralist fediverse, yada yada yada. Entire networks of different, unconnected instances can exist. There will probably be instances in between that act as bridges or for gathering stats.
It will be interesting to watch, but at least people will be able to join the instances with communities they like. The problem of course is that echo chambers are more likely to evolve, but it’s not like that isn’t the case right now.
And once we get instance bridged with the dark web, it could allow content from countries like China, North Korea, Iran, and other places that don’t want information getting out.
I think we’re already seeing that a lot of the groups are going to be left-leaning, and since the system is decentralized by design, it’s not going to be attractive to people that are right-wing and have authoritarian views. E.g., they won’t be able to force other people to see what they say. (Remember the shitstorm of whining when TheDonald was removed from the front page so that 99% of people didn’t see it anymore?)
I’m Iranian. Lemmy isn’t even filtered in Iran, it’s readily accessible
Oh it certainly wasn’t free speech. Tons of users trolling neo-nazis got banned.
Voat was a replica of Reddit in design. One centralized server. We would have ended up in the same crappy place even if that were a success because at some point they would have wanted to monetize it also.
You have to do some reading and learn about the technology behind Lemmy and federation to understand.
I think the other Motorheads did a fair job of explaining.
I quess it’ll be Lemmy/Kbin, or at least for me. What is voat? ;) (never heard of it until this post)
Voat originally emerged in 2015 during the height of the Ellen Pao scandal that swept Reddit, and quickly garnered some Reddit refugees, particularly those from /r/fatpeoplehate, a subreddit dedicated to hating on the obese.
It almost died that year for three key reasons:
- Hosting morally repugnant legal grey-area content which was previously purged from Reddit, such as creepshots and jailbait. This not only drove users away but also made advertisers, payment processors and other stakeholders drop the site very quickly. /r/shitredditsays were a key player in getting companies like PayPal and Stripe to blacklist them.
- Server instability. Crashes were frequent and the site went through significant downtime because it had received the Reddit hug of death.
- The moment Ellen Pao was forced to resign and Steve Huffman was sworn in as CEO, everybody flocked back to Reddit thinking the day had been saved.
Voat soon became a vessel for Reddit’s undesirable communities that Spez had purged. The moment he banned subreddits like /r/n*****, /r/c***town and other subreddits dedicated to glorifying racial hatred, they flocked to Voat and turned it into a white supremacist hellhole. Another thing that spurred the change was Stormfront (a white supremacist/neo-nazi forum) being cut off by their hosting provider.
What ultimately killed the site was COVID-19. A major investor in the site pulled out during the pandemic and after months of failing to secure funding, the owner just gave up and closed the site down on Christmas Day, 2020.
I can attest to this. I went to Voat briefly, shit was wild.
As a site it had merit but unfortunately it ended up scooping up a good number of the forced exiles from Reddit and not nearly as many normal users. Content had a big skew.
Voat started getting “popular” the last time Reddit fucked up, but back then it was just a bunch of T_D folks trying to cope.
This is the first time a new place doesn’t seem overwhelmed by racists.
Lemmy is not a “free speech” platform, unlike Voat. It can be moderated. Offending instances in the Fediverse can be blocked and all that stuff. As long as the moderators do their job, they can filter everything they want to filter, just like Reddit.
The more interesting question with Lemmy is if the federation will actual have any advantage in the long run, as cutting other instances off is the easiest way to moderate them. Which than in turn means the users have to hop between server, which is annoying and will in turn will lead to more centralization again.
For the time being I see Lemmy not as “The Solution™”, but more as a “not-Reddit”. It can and will run into all the problems as ever other Web forum will.
For more explanation regarding the problem with free speech platforms, I’ll point to Mike Masnick’s Twitter speedrun he offered to Elon Musk ( on Techdirt ) which is a funny and useful explantion of why free speech quickly breaks down.
When the US federal government was talking about free speech platforms (largely because hate speech some officials agreed with was getting censored on Twitter), I had proposed that the US government could sponsor a free-speech platform just to remind us what happens when a platform goes unmoderated, and any time they want to take chunks out of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, we could look at that and decide yes, indeed, let’s not force everything else to turn into that nightmare.
Edit: Fixed Markup. I hope
This is just the start of Reddit’s board going for the big money. It’s at odds with a volunteer modded site and volunteer created content. Mods aren’t going to be happy to do unpaid work just so the CEO can get rich. This API stuff is just the first exposure of this conflict. As more mods wonder why they are doing this for free just so what’s his name gets rich, more will abandon Reddit and come to Lemmy.
Well for one Lemmy is open source and federated. It’s not one site, so even if the developers get tired of fooling with it, the servers don’t depend on them and other people could take over development without express permission from the original developers.
Lemmy is a very different conceptually than Voat. A major difference is it’s not just a single website, of course, it’s open source software that anyone can download and install, which makes it very resilient. The federation aspect is clever too, making it much more than if it was just a bunch of different, disconnected websites running a version of Lemmy.
Voat’s goal of being specific to a certain political ideology naturally limited it, too. It doesn’t seem that conservative ideology is particularly popular among whatever demographic reddit serves, based on the distribution of subs and comments. Maybe I’m wrong and conservatives just avoid reddit because they view it as a liberal/left site, idk.
Plus, as others have noted Voat was toxic from the start, being composed mainly of people from communities that were kicked off Reddit for breaking rules about hate speech and violence. That’s a very shaky foundation, obviously. Lemmy has recently gained tons of users of course, primarily people who ditched reddit because it sucks, not were ditched by reddit for sucking. Huge difference there too.
@zeppo@lemmy.world wrote:
being composed mainly of people from communities that were kicked off Reddit for breaking rules about hate speech and violence
Few people know that Lemmy was also created by people kicked off from Reddit for breaking rules on hate speech and violence. And racism.
Yet, indeed. The ability for you to set up a website for just about anything and have all the communities you like, is super cool. And it will clearly give Lemmy an upper hand in this.
The nice thing about this system is unlike a single website, we don’t have to worry about specific individuals in the same way. I can picture Lemmy ending up with 2-3 major networks and several smaller ones that operate as independent entities.
Lemmy has recently gained tons of users of course, primarily people who ditched reddit because it sucks, not were ditched by reddit for sucking. Huge difference there too.
That distinction is huge. Voat also became the haven for jailbait, fatpeoplehate, and other notorious communities.
It doesn’t seem that conservative ideology is particularly popular among whatever demographic reddit serves, based on the distribution of subs and comments.
At one point reddit was a very diverse community.
After one of the migrations to the site, some of the new users couldn’t tolerate the idea that there were extremists hiding in certain dark corners of reddit. Those users started finding those subs and doing things like taking a screenshot of an ad next to a post that company would never support and spreading it around the internet. It didn’t take long after that until reddit started cleaning out those dark corners.
I’ve been on reddit since about 2008. My experience was that it’s was very left/liberal, drawing users mainly from university students. There have always been people posting content that made it like 4chan lite, but not political talk. As best I recall I first saw anyone there identify politically conservative around 2014 and it seemed surprising.
I remember it mostly the way you do. It certainly wasn’t conservative in any sense of the word. Socially,
/r/atheismwas a default sub, most of the user base was LGBT friendly, and pornography was allowed. Economically, universal healthcare and the OWS protests were supported.There was a libertarian-minded free-speech-absolutist streak, which is why things like
/r/jailbaitand/r/watchpeoplediewere allowed. Some people like to blame the elimination of that type of stuff on “intolerant leftists” but in my estimation the real culprit there was the media catching wind and advertisers not wanting to advertise on sites with that sort of content.In my opinion, Reddit became far more hostile to conservatives when
/r/the_donaldtook off. That may be more a sign of the times than anything particular about Reddit; political engagement in general was rising during that time. But also most users didn’t really appreciate the way that sub manipulated Reddit’s algorithms, or being called “cuck” in their hobby subs.
Bro voat was an absolute shit show. The comparison isn’t even there.
This 100%, and the beauty of Lemmy, is that bigots and racists can have their own Lemmy server, and servers for normal people can defaderate that. Keeping the shit show contained to their own bubble.
And it’s very much noticed in the feel of communication everywhere here.
So far in my first week, discussions here are much more civil than most spaces at Reddit.
Also, yes, I have run into a couple of douche canoes (like one guy making a thread “questioning” the concept of being trans), but they were just called out for their hateful nonsense and downvoted to oblivion by the 99% of the community, and their… ahem… “contributions” quickly disappeared. So the good people of these spaces seem to quickly clean up the trash that does wash up on this beach, and it’s very refreshing!
I definitely see myself enjoying Lemmy long term from here, regardless of what happens over at Reddit.
And we already have Lore! (3 day no shitting guy)
deleted by creator
Voat was born out of several questionable subs being banned from reddit so naturally the userbase was into very questionable things. That’s why they failed so hard
The Lemmy devs and admins of lemmy.ml are pro-China tankies, aren’t they?
the great thing is that it has absolutely no bearing outside of that one instance. they have no control over anything that happens in lemmy.world or any other instance, if they are even exerting it over their own
you wouldn’t be saying that if tankies were replaced with nazis or something else, just sayin’
Lemmy is already doing much, much better than Voat. Less Nazis too (so far).
If you ignore all the tankies, it’s great!
The leftists are why there are so few nazis.
Thankies are a very special kind of “leftist”.
The last century of History has shown that the principle of “the greatest good for the greatest number” isn’t really compatible with the autocracy that tankies love some much and many are so painfully close to fascists (with but a different set of slogans) that they end up loving the likes of Putin.
That said, they seem to have their own instance, whose admins seem very very keen on the whole Centralized Control aspect of things (a very tankie approach to managing speech) so they’re cutting themselves off from the rest of the Fediverse which does sound absolutelly fine (I for one am happy with people having their own circle-jerk safe-space separate from the rest - if it makes them happy whilst not causing problems for the rest then it furthers the whole “the greatest good for the greatest number” thing, IMHO).
I still don’t know what kbin is.
Honestly though Lemmy needs a rename. The musical artist is significantly more popular and it screws up searches.
Good point. I know SEO isn’t the be all and end all in a federated world, but if we do want this place to grow we do have to make it easy to find.
Both ‘Lemmy’ and ‘kbin’ aren’t the most memorable names
I propose we fuse them both into a new name: Lembin
Who’s Lemmy?
Oh my god I forgot voat existed. Isn’t that a far right hell hole now?
It’s gone now, thankfully but yes it turned into an alt right paradise before it went kaputt.
