When Al-Qaeda themselves claimed responsibility, even with overwhelming evidence aside? Why were so many people still reluctant, I was researching about this stuff and was shocked to see people who I respect a lot believe in this

  • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    A lot of it was shock and confusion. How could this happen? Why did this happen? People wanted answers and people got answers.

    I was a truther right away, after 9/11. It’s embarrassing to say now. I fell for narratives like “jet fuel doesnt melt steel” and “only a controlled demolition collapses like that.”

    Jet fuels softens steal beams, and they were holding up so much weight. And that’s exactly how a really tall building, surrounded by other tall buildings, looks when it collapses.

    People were hot with emotion and it’s hard to be rational in that state of mind.

    At this point, I believe some in the US government knew the attack was imminent but did not know when, and by the time it was happening, it was too late.

    I can’t dismiss as out of hand the idea that Bush, Cheny, and some of their friends in Saudi Arabia (people who are now Donald Trump’s friends), wanted the attack to happen, specifically in order to justify wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which I do believe were just wars under a doctrine of irredentism.

  • doctorcrimson@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago
    1. It was unthinkable to millions of people that an attack on the USA could reach so far in as to hit the World Trade Center and the Pentagon in a single morning. We were the strongest military on earth and had fully operational radar, but failed to keep planes from absolutely demolishing the towers. A lot of people just can’t understand the complicated stuff like that.

    2. The government has done a lot worse.

  • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
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    5 months ago

    People are emotion driven. The idea of a conspiracy is somehow more soothing to them than a chaotic world where no one’s really in control. Also many people are, frankly, fragile cowards, and the idea of admitting they are wrong is too much for their ego to take.

    People’s beliefs are social. Once they’re in a social group that believes something, they’re very unlikely to change. It’s not even wholly conscious. But if someone’s in conspiracy circles, abandoning the beliefs means losing all those friends. That feels like Danger to the brain, and most people will reject it.

  • mods_are_assholes@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    To quote Pearl from ‘Keep Beach City Weird’:

    Humans just lead short, boring, insignificant lives, so they make up stories to feel like they’re a part of something bigger. They want to blame all the world’s problems on some single enemy they can fight, instead of a complex network of interrelated forces beyond anyone’s control.

    • fastandcurious@lemmy.worldOP
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      5 months ago

      Excellent quote but it also makes me sad, we are fighting so much evil and the worst one of them exist among us, or atleast I think

      • mods_are_assholes@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Apologies for the incoming wall of text, this is one of my special interests.

        First fact, one I need to constantly remind myself of: We are living in the most peaceful era of human existence. This is a measurable fact. Violent crime is down almost everywhere, especially in previous hotspots like New York and Detroit. Even though we see constant conflict in the world it has always been there but our awareness has changed (more below). Fewer per-capita people die by violence of all kinds now than in any 40 year slice in human history.

        I know it doesn’t feel that way, because nowadays instead of seeing foreign conflict in a relatively tame newspaper article, we get live video of the horrors of it right on our phones. This has change our awareness of war.

        THAT SAID yes there are still very good reasons to fight against this and the other human caused atrocities like economic collapse and global warming.

        THE REASON we have the luxury to worry about these abstract things is that SO FEW of us are worried about dying from simple diseases or in armed conflict, so we move on to the next tier.

        Don’t get me wrong, I am so passionately an advocate that human-caused global warming is real and that we have the ability to reverse it, same with our world economic policies that is leading us to global Depression, and I have taken to the streets in the past to protest for reform of these things, and will in the future.

        But the thing is, the world is currently controlled by the rich, and most rich people don’t give a shit about anything other than their own insatiable greed, so until their voices are made irrelevant, there will be no meaningful change as the climate and economy collapses.

        Maybe then we will see an uptick in violent conflict, once the food riots start. I don’t think there is any way to avoid it.

  • themeatbridge@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Because Bush and company did everything they could to protect the Saudis and the Bin Laden family, and then made massive fortunes attacking Iraq which had nothing to do with the attack.

    At best, the Bush administration were opportunistic war-profiteers who abused the situation for their own gain.

    That doesn’t validate any of the absurd theories about demolitions or RC planes.

  • corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
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    5 months ago

    I drove away from the WTC on the morning of 2001-09-11. I watched from a safe distance as the towers fell. It was a surreal day I shared with like 10 million people as we watched the smoke and fires and falling structures, willing with every ounce of our being that our loved ones due to be in the area at the time - and one in the building interviewing upstairs - ended up far away at the right time. The universe delivered, and we luckily lost no dear friends that day, but it was tense while some of them were in the proverbial wind.

    I still - I’m ashamed to admit - think something was SUPER-fishy about the pentagon strike. I believe it when they say the parts don’t add up, and I believe them when they say the surveillance tapes from a local gas station were taken, and I debated the significance of the lamp-posts being taken down in the days before where they magically didn’t get hit by the incoming plane. And I’m pretty sure the plane following that pennsylvania crash was doing more than watching.

    Do I think the planes hit the towers? Yep. Do I think the jet fuel weakened the structure until it popped? Yep. But I can’t resolve the rumour that the basement was empty on that day of all days. I heard the stories that the tail numbers were spotted elsewhere and I briefly gave it some thought until I just went “nah, fuck that” and tossed that idea.

    I don’t think there’s gonna be an alternate explanation to cover the weird concerns I have, and I can live with that; but I’m not gonna forget it.

    That’s the way it is.

      • Dr_Satan@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        Some would call them “independent thinkers”

        What’s more admirable, to conform and be right or to think independently and be wrong?

        • mods_are_assholes@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I think the weaponization of ignorance is a more nuanced subject than a binary choice.

          There is no merit in pushing significantly disproven ‘theories’ like flat earthism.

          • Dr_Satan@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            No doubt. But dang, when they call themself right because they quote the most popular authority, I feel a strong impulse to play it wrong.

            I mean, I’d push flat-eartherism just to highlight the absurdity of the popular epistemology. But that’s generally a pearls-before-swine situation.

            • mods_are_assholes@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Funny you mention that, there is a Flat Earth society that was started as a joke with members just arguing for fun.

              They were mostly all replaced by true believers by the late 90s, I got to watch it happen.

              And it plays out the same way in so many ‘ironic stupidity’ forums.

              • Dr_Satan@lemm.ee
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                5 months ago

                The true believers have more zip than the careful contemplators, unfortunately.

                • mods_are_assholes@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  This is a flaw in human nature that needs to be resolved before we move forward as a species.

                  It is no longer a survival benefit to follow loud, angry people.

  • Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee
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    5 months ago

    Also the usual pattern (seen in many countries/empires, not just USA) - since civil war war-profiting (closely related to the two parties & why the switch happened) the industry was always hungry and in need of a good loosing-ish war (or - only short periods without a war).

    It always follows the same pattern --> need for profits/power expenditure rises --> if public is (fuded) on board, great, if not, we need a terrorist-like attack, seemingly unpreventable yet utterly publicly show before it happened.

    Like in WWII, USA had stakes on both sides, but also not ‘as big’ of a military budget as they could have. The problem was that the public was super against entering the conflict (80~90% against, this is the time when the civil war was well within lining memory with soldiers and widows on proper military pensionsv still alive, regular parades, etc). So for the first time ever they decide to put all their ship-eggs in one Pearl-basket & advertise that move a lott, how they did that, where they did that (how much time they are gonna wait there, lul), and what defenses are there, how the seamen were sent home etc. All under the disguise of showing their military power to Japan (that’s like exposing your balls to an enemy that is already attacking you). Ofc the attack successfully happened, propaganda machine spun up (still today we get movies about that, ‘the horror’), the public option switched over night and politicians could hike the military budget substantially. (Movies that we don’t get is about what/how USA did to japan - like how they killed more civilians with regular carpet bombing per day compared to the killed in blasts of atomic bombs - the most destructive single air attack in human history … and USA dropped about 4× as much bombs total in Vietnam)

    The same with 9-11, public is anti war, you have the two towers and movies detailing how easy it would be to crash a plane into specifically the towers. Or Vietnam proxy war, which lasted for so long that the public turned back against it (hippies) and government had to demonize them (the ridiculous anti weed laws/enforcement, “satanism”, etc).

    Funding and assisting a foreign terrorist group for profit is shockingly common. Sometimes you even have to manufacture a new group because the existing don’t suit your needs.

    Oh, and the atrocities compared are always like x killed in domestic attack, xxxxxx killed in the foreign bombarding campaign. When public opinion isn’t that big of an issue a smaller trigger point is needed - usually USA sends literal military personnel into sovereign foreign countries & when the invaded county returns fire in the invading force USA counts that as an act of war (huh, I guess technically that is correct).

    • Sort of like how Israel has been funding Hamas?

      I’d be willing to entertain the 9/11 theory of the US funding Al-Qaeda except for two facts:

      1. Al-Qaeda was sufficiently well-funded and supported without US involvement
      2. I saw that video of Bush hearing the news and sitting, indecisively and in shock. The man was not that good an actor; he was pretty obviously at a complete loss about how to react.

      It requires more suspension of disbelief that the head of state would be utterly unaware of such a program or plan, and if he was aware, he’d certainly have a better photo-op reaction planned than sitting there like a stunned cow for several minutes.

      Al-Qaeda was absolutely a product of US intelligence agencies, but not to this end. We created them to cause grief for the Russians, and once spawned, they grew their own agendas, some of which were turned against their creators. I doubt any US agency had any knowing involvement with 9/11. What we did have is indirect involvement, and a shit-ton of hubris.

      • Meowoem@sh.itjust.works
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        5 months ago

        They do have a lot of rules in supplying aid to Hamas if you actually look into it, most the criticism of them proping up Hamas come from ultra right wing criticism of providing aid and medical support to Palestine.

        If you believe all Palestine is Hamas it makes sense and you’d have to say allowing aid in is bad but I don’t think you want that.

        • I have to think about these responses, although they may come out being brief.

          I absolutely do not believe all Palestinians are Hamas or support Hama’s, and even if I did think they were, and even included Palestinian children and infants, I would say Israel’s response is disproportionate.

          In any case, Israel has been murdering non-combattants and protesters non-stop for years, and settlers have been murdering Palestinians with no consequence and stealing Palestinian land for decades. Hamas is merely a group of terrorists propped up after Israel saw the value of having a name to put on the enemy, following 9/11 and Al-Qaeda.

          I see no justice or relief for Palestine from any quarter; the world has abandoned them.

  • spittingimage@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I think it’s because people would rather believe the world is secretly controlled by some truly awful people than acknowledge no-one’s steering the bus.

    • platypus_plumba@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I think it is because of the bizarre way the towers collapsed. Just like a controlled demolition looks like. The way the WTC7, that did not get hit by any plane, also collapsed. Supposedly because it caught on fire too.

      I think this is really the cause of suspicion, it was just pretty bizarre. A lot of people came forward to explain that a fire couldn’t brind such a massive structure down.

      Also, the US is known for doing weird shit behind everyone’s backs. The CIA is constantly doing shit like taking governments down or causing a drug crisis in black neighborhoods. You gotta admit the US agencies are sneaky in general, so it wouldn’t be a surprise if they were actually responsible for the twin towers. There’s no evidence but I’m pretty sure the CIA was somehow involved with the Nord Stream pipeline

        • platypus_plumba@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I’m not saying it is a conspiracy, I was just explaining why people think it is.

          But let’s assume they did place the explosives, they wouldn’t have to be in the place of impact, they would be located in many places, just like a controlled demolition.

          Again, not saying that’s what happened, just saying that the US is constantly doing sneaky stuff under the covers, which is why most conspiracies don’t seem far fetched.

          Do you really think it is insane to believe the US made up the moon landing as a propaganda campaign against Russia? I believe we went to the moon, but if they came up with official documents saying we didn’t, I would be like “welp, US doing US things I guess”

          • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Do you really think it is insane to believe the US made up the moon landing as a propaganda campaign against Russia?

            Which moon landing? All of them? There was more than one. And yes I think it is very nearly insane given how much evidence we have.

            • platypus_plumba@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              If you want to take this to a philosophical extreme so you understand my argument, is it possible to ever know anything with certainty?

              What do you call evidence? Photos, videos, testimony… Do I personally trust in that evidence? Yes, it would be very unlikely to be fake, but many unlikely conspiracies have surfaced in the past.

    • pixelmeow@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      My boss, along with thousands of other people, was in his car commuting between VA and DC on the 14th street bridge. The plane went right over that bridge to crash into the pentagon. Thousands of cars on the surface streets around the pentagon. Thousands of people in the mid-rise buildings in Crystal City and surrounding areas saw the plane. Everyone driving that morning saw the plane. You cannot discount a plane when so many actually saw it, just because you didn’t.

    • tim-clark@kbin.social
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      5 months ago

      I watched live TV coverage (online) of the pentagon prior to the fire department showing up. There was a 10-15ft hole and NO wings, NO fire, a small hole only. Somewhere on an old drive I have all the videos available online that day. Have showed those to many people over the years, they all said WTF!!

      Watching these videos it was clear there was no plane that hit the pentagon

        • nutomic@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          Where did the wings and engines of the plane go? Did they neatly fold in to fit into the narrow hole, and then hide under the rubble?

          • Salamander@mander.xyz
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            5 months ago

            I don’t have much of an opinion on this topic, I haven’t really looked into it.

            But as soon as I saw this image, the El Al Flight 1862 which crashed in the Bijlmer in Amsterdam in 1992 immediately came to mind. The shape of the hole is very similar!

            This image shows the likely position of the Bijlmer plane during the crash:

            The image you posted of the Pentagon seems to me consistent with what I have seen of the Bijlmer accident, and so the shape of the hole and the absence of wings in the photo does not persuade me personally that no plane was involved.

  • bamfic@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Because there was some legit sketchy shit:

    1. Bush was warned at least a month in advance that an attack was coming. He deliberately did nothing. This was documented publicly in a Senate hearing afterwards. We don’t know whether he did nothing because of incompetence or malice, and we don’t know who else knew in advance as well, but either way, at least he and the people who briefed him knew.

    2. The dirty secret of skyscrapers is that they’re mostly made of nothing. They’re almost entirely air. It takes precious little to weaken them and bring them down. The Bin Laden family was in the construction business and they knew this fact very well.

    3. As others have noted in the thread, Bin Laden and the Muhjadeen had been funded, trained, and armed by the USA. They were our creation.

    Usually when people are suspicious, they’re right to be suspicious. They’re not always right about what to be suspicious about.

    • remotelove@lemmy.ca
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      5 months ago

      It takes precious little to weaken them and bring them down.

      I would argue that an airliner filled with tons of fuel is not “little”. That was a lot of mass moving really fast into the towers. Even then, it took a while for the structures to become weak enough to collapse. Given the circumstances, it was amazing the towers lasted as long as they did after they were hit.

      Your core description is correct though: There really isn’t much to skyscrapers.

        • remotelove@lemmy.ca
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          5 months ago

          I think that is generally for the floor of each level and for the actual foundation of the structure itself.

          The bulk of the primary structure core is just steel, I think. Skyscrapers need to bend and flex with the wind or during earthquakes. (I am not an architect, but I have watched a few TV shows about this stuff in the past. I think.)

    • madcaesar@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I’m confused by this comment, what exactly is sketchy?

      W is/was an incompetent fool that didn’t feel the threat was worth acting upon. Instead of imagining some 4D conspiracy its much easier to see and understand that him and his administration were inept.

      There have been numerous documentaries and analysis about skyscrapers and planes and the conclusion was that the towers actually performed ABOVE average. People don’t seem to understand the power involved in a fucking jerliner slamming into a building.

      Bin Laden was trained and armed to fight the Russians, which he did. He then decided to turn on us because he always was always a lunatic.

      Again, nothing about 9/11 is mysterious to me and I don’t get the conspiracy thinking.

  • mayo@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Because two planes hit two buildings (and the other one) and like 3-4 buildings imploded. It didn’t look real.

    Im guessing engineers didn’t plan for planes to strike the building which is why they crumbled.

    That was literally it. It was so odd a situation to our daily lives that parts of it didn’t seem real.

    • frostwhitewolf@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      They actually did design the buildings to survive such incidents, which is one of the many reasons that makes it all a bit fishy

      • ArxCyberwolf@lemmy.ca
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        5 months ago

        The buildings were designed to withstand a small or medium sized aircraft at a relatively low speed with low fuel, similar to the incident with the Empire State Building. It’s not uncommon for other buildings to be built to similar standards, so I don’t see how this would be fishy. It’s a pair of skyscrapers, the threat of a plane hitting them accidentally during bad weather was a possibility. They were not designed to withstand a modern airliner travelling at an incredibly high speed with a full load of fuel. The fact they survived as long as they did is miraculous.

      • Rakonat@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        They designed the buildings to implode because on the 60s and 70s there was a worry that buildings would topple over onto neighbouring buildings if damaged or compromised, and was a legitimate concern as architects were putting forth designs using less reinforcement because they didn’t need as much half a century earlier to build things like the empire state building thanks to better building techniques and materials.

        They did exactly what they were designed to do when their integrity was compromised to the point to failure, which is impressive feet. Just ask any engineer what happens when a small but dense and fast moving object slams into the end of a second class lever.

  • hightrix@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I didn’t actually believe this, but it was fun to entertain the idea.

    Here’s why. At the time, there were a bunch of very odd coincidences. I’ll do my best to remember the best of them.

    • The CIA/NSA (one of the “secret” agencies) put out a budget report showing a large amount of money that was not trackable, in the billions.
    • Coincidentally, the section of the pentagon hit by the “plane” was reportedly where financial records were stored.
    • By “plane”, I mean object. If you watch the 1 video that got out (all other videos were confiscated) from the nearby gas station, the thing that hits the pentagon does not look like a plane but instead a missile.

    Next!

    • reportedly, the owner of the twin towers took out a massive insurance policy against the buildings the day or week before 9/11 (I forget exact timing)
    • also, the building was covered in asbestos, the cost to remove was in the billions, and the cost to keep the building occupied always also increasing

    Next!

    • building 7 (I think that’s the right one) collapsed under what appeared to be demolishing conditions
    • building 7 was never hit by a plane or anything else, it just dropped like it was purposefully demolished

    Edit: forgot one!

    • the towers were obviously hit by planes, we have plenty of video evidence of this. The controversy is around how the towers actually fell. This is where the “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams” meme comes from.

    There are more, but it’s been 20 years and my memory is hazy.

    Overall, there were some oddities around the whole event that, when allowing yourself to think completely outside of reality, make sense as to why it was an inside job.

    Finally, personally I believe the Saudis did it in cooperation with Bin Laden and their goal was to bankrupt America. They did a pretty good job, from their perspective.

    • otp@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      the towers were obviously hit by planes, we have plenty of video evidence of this. The controversy is around how the towers actually fell. This is where the “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams” meme comes from.

      Of course, the meme is a parody of anyone who thinks that’s a legitimate argument. You don’t need to liquify a material for it to lose its structural integrity.

        • otp@sh.itjust.works
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          4 months ago

          Yes, people believed “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams”, but the meme is a parody of people who believed it.

          Sometimes parodies are just literal reflections.