Brute force protection

@memes

  • gibmiser@lemmy.world
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    8 个月前

    As a non programmer, is the joke that humans will retype their password assuming that they made a typo?

    If so, sick indeed.

    • Infynis@midwest.social
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      8 个月前

      The guy coding made it so, on your first attempt, even if you answer correctly, it will tell you your login failed due to incorrect username or password, to joke about how it feels like you always get it wrong on the first try

      • soloner@lemmy.world
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        8 个月前

        The logic is bugging me, though. It should be if isFirstAttempt || !isPasswordCorrect

        I understand the meme is trying to convey in spite of being correct to still return an error, but then it doesn’t account for when the password is actually incorrect.

        • QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world
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          8 个月前

          That defeats the brute-force attack protection…

          The idea is that brute-force attackers will only check each password once, while real users will likely assume they mistyped and retype the same password.

          The code isn’t complete, and has nothing to do with actually incorrect passwords.

        • reflectedodds@lemmy.world
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          8 个月前

          Like the other person said, it’s not meant to always fail the first time you enter any password.

          It is meant to fail the first time you enter the correct password.

          • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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            8 个月前

            So it should be: if password == correct and first_success == true then { login failure; first_success = false }

            Something like that.

    • NutWrench@lemmy.world
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      8 个月前

      I would assume that I was being phished and the attacker wanted me to re-type the password to verify that it’s correct.

  • Matriks404@lemmy.world
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    8 个月前

    Well, I sometimes input the same password 15-times in a row, and it works only on the last try. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

      • Rickety Thudds@lemmy.ca
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        8 个月前

        Rainbow tables and presumably newer stuff I haven’t heard of make this sort of thing weaker than it used to be

        • aname@lemmy.one
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          8 个月前

          Salting makes rainbow tables pretty much useless, and salting has been a standard practise for a few decades now.

          • Mango@lemmy.world
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            8 个月前

            A few? I always had an easy time cracking my mom’s desktop password with them so I guess Microsoft wasn’t doing it with XP or Vista.

        • Whelks_chance@lemmy.world
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          8 个月前

          How does a rainbow table help here? They’re more for decoding unsalted encrypted database tables, rather than for actually trying to login.

        • Clent@lemmy.world
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          8 个月前

          The rainbow table would have to include every four word combination. At around half a million words in the English dictionary, that’s not a small number.

          As another XKCD comic illustrates, it’s cheaper to use a wrench.

        • saigot@lemmy.ca
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          8 个月前

          Dictionary attacks have been around for a long time, but It’s still quite strong especially if you throw in a number.

          A fully random 8 character password has about 10^14 brute force combinations (assuming upper and lower case + the normal special characters). 4 words choosen at random from the top 3000 words (which is a very small vocabulary really) is 10^13 dictionary attack combinations, add a single number or account for variations in word style (I.e maybe don’t always use camel case) and you’ve matched the difficulty. If you use 5 words it’s 10^17 combinations.

          A password manager and a hard password is a better idea but there are cases where you can’t use a password manager (like the password to said manager).

          • sloppy_diffuser@sh.itjust.works
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            8 个月前

            I do a passphrase like the comic followed by 56 characters of gibberish using an https://onlykey.io/ (acts as a USB keyboard) that has a 10 digit pin (6 characters to choose from) and a kill switch pin (if I were ever forced to unlock it). I use this method for my disk encryption, main account login, and password manager.

            I also use a https://www.themooltipass.com/ for vendor diversity (4 digit pin but all hex characters). I prefer the onlykey.

            I rotate the gibberish monthly and the passphrase 2-3 times a year.

            Once a year I change up the pin codes.

            I figure that gives me enough entropy from brute force on all my systems with a balanced level of convienence and security. I literally don’t know a single one of my passwords.

        • OpenStars@startrek.website
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          8 个月前

          Yeah I thought about adding a note that it’s pretty outdated - and dictionary based scans were always possible even if less common in the old days - like those infamous passwords “God”, “Love”, “secret”, or like “admin”.

          The artist is pretty smart most of the time though so I presume they were aware of that possibility and meant that on a more basic level there are multiple ways to make passwords easier for a user to remember, not necessarily just this one rather simplistic take but as part of a whole approach. Then again, they didn’t say that, and instead said this, thus the controversy.

          Personally I gave up entirely and now I don’t even know what any of my own passwords are, though my password manager does:-). I guess… if you cannot beat them, join them!?:-P

          • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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            8 个月前

            My current favorite “memorizable” method (obviously a random hash from a PW manager is still better) is to take a sentence of moderate complexity that includes the name of the service you’re signing up for in it, and use the first letter of each word as your password.

            For example, “When I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is go to pawb.social.”

            Password would be “WIwuitm,tftIdigtps.”

            Easy to remember, immune to dictionary attacks, and you get a (mostly) unique password for each service, so stolen passwords can only access that one thing.

            Edit: To be clear, the value is that you can use the same sentence everywhere, switching out the name of the service to generate semi-unique passwords for each service. Obviously someone analyzing your passwords would be able to figure out the pattern, but that’s basically never what actually happens; it’s more likely someone gets 1 password and tries your email address + that PW in a variety of services, which this is strong against.

            • OpenStars@startrek.website
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              8 个月前

              I dunno, all I do is hit copy, then go to the website and hit paste, and that’s pretty easy as well:-P.

              I do need to step up my game for work though, b/c it keeps asking me a password multiple times a day so if I could rattle one off that would be better than having to open up my password manager and get it.

              • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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                8 个月前

                It’s surprisingly easy to memorize. The sentence basically acts as a mnemonic device to remember the password, and it’s a lot easier to memorize a sentence that makes sense to you than to memorize something like “Tr0ub4d0r&8”.

            • The_v@lemmy.world
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              8 个月前

              I have a strict, “do I give a fuck” policy when it comes to security.

              I keep the harder to crack passwords for critical things like banking, etc… since there’s only a few I can remember them. I also always use MFA.

              For all the other shit that I don’t give a fuck if it’s hacked it’s the good old *Banana$1234" type password that I reuse for decades and save to firefox’s password manager.

          • Natanael@slrpnk.net
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            8 个月前

            It’s not outdated at all, but you need more words.

            See diceware, 7 to 8 words is typically all you need

      • Rustmilian@lemmy.world
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        8 个月前

        Example of what My passwords are like :
        %*7EfOLkN@6AP28!8Dl#
        or potentially if allowed :
        W@c2wYnN9J3xGcyc47#ZkHJvt&Hm%q&Ad0b&Xwz#jnl4Th%6UBexD16a$YBFc@svnVrCBxXP0EpwLp6%Gk*Lom%@Qq#DjY1zsf0CzIrHHqPc8gt4edDVsg!omj*kIsIJ
        Good luck guessing my shit.

        • smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de
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          8 个月前

          Amateur! Strong enough passwords are like:

          ÕÚüd¸2stb½õ~jëv×Â/oyÓh²î´t¶»Ö°ÍðoNVRïé2Wc4'H,CâÞó_ökÅ,Kð¡X9ÄÀ.þTØÓoæ73d*ëÞ¢?²i"`צeÉçß,ÎÅëüS.¹([)ãÒÑêf9÷¿¢=@Á×ÅQÎÂßu¸Å(iRZµîw&ãR
          
          • MeatPilot@lemmy.world
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            8 个月前

            That’s the stupidest combination I’ve ever heard in my life! That’s the kinda thing an idiot would have on his luggage!

          • Rustmilian@lemmy.world
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            8 个月前

            Try this on for size :

            `'�d+�t<�5mF�qrqcmv/�F��~��Yv�Om�/lK�RɏY%ɺP1�h�Ryl-G/��m�ʰ�+^)��<>�itdkaz�q2HA*1�PK�D@{9�vN.<}�~ٕ�_�26IA/cHIn����1ĈҾܒl�I9$�vA��W¸ȶW"z�}θ�x�,>~�Ux�SJZ\�5ÀI��F}nLZT�;KӚq�&NQo32y7���0"^LÎs>��j!��V��k��2O<2W�ƽYcA#8�J�Of�pهZb�%1g�w�!k*h(ʶ73�@�CC�hUsԺe!_��dR�ٞpvG|.=4{v"&.��m=_�͚DZZף�aaZ��Cq�!sG1T3�=2lb,����^�镰n)Ld]��Ϯ
            

            What’s my power level now?

            • darelik@lemmy.world
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              8 个月前

              #ENHANCE

              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            • smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de
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              8 个月前

              You lever is very low! There are not displayable characters so you cannot easly verity the password by eye or copy from paper.

              • Rustmilian@lemmy.world
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                8 个月前

                Why would I have to verify by eye? That’s what a password manager is for. And writing your passwords on paper? ಠ⁠益⁠ಠ

      • iAvicenna@lemmy.world
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        8 个月前

        I suspect if the cracking code was constructed such that it had more weight on trying combinations of common words then this would be much easier to crack

        • OpenStars@startrek.website
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          8 个月前

          I would naively think that as well - you would expand your alphabet of “symbols” to include both single letters and numbers and punctuation but also common words as well. It is still a lot of combinations to have to try though, even if less than each letter by itself.

  • TORFdot0@lemmy.world
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    8 个月前

    If they had the password right the first try, that isn’t a brute force attack, thats a credential leak.

  • Pacmanlives@lemmy.world
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    8 个月前

    I remember in college editing OpenSSH source code to instead of return wrong password to a root shell prompt just to stop brute force attacks

  • finkrat@lemmy.world
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    8 个月前

    Won’t protect against an offline attack (just will confuse the hell out of the hacker) but might confound an online attack? Until someone gets wise and runs the tool a second time. Loving the chaotic neutral vibes here.

    • zalgotext@sh.itjust.works
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      8 个月前

      It doesn’t really even protect against online attacks though. Like, if you’re going through a list of known accounts, by definition it won’t be any of those accounts’ first time logging in, right?

      And if you’re not going through a list of known accounts, good luck getting anywhere with your attack any time this millennia

  • cobra89@beehaw.org
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    8 个月前

    Not to be pedantic but wouldn’t it be IsFirstLoginWithAttemptedPassword or am I missing something?

    • chraebsli@programming.dev
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      8 个月前

      no, since it first checks if the password is correct. if it is, display error message. if it is corrent and the second time, accept the password (code not in screenshot) but if the password is wrong, it doesnt check if it is the first attempt.

        • chraebsli@programming.dev
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          8 个月前

          You can’t really prevent a brute force attack. Even if you prevent it from one IP or so, you can still do “distributed” brute force attacks.

          Also only allowing one password per 5 seconds or so per IP will not work if you have lots of users and they are at work and have the same IP.

        • pythonoob@programming.dev
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          8 个月前

          It wouldn’t stop most brute force attacks, which are not performed on the live web service, but rather on a password hasb list that was stolen via some other means.

    • piracy_is_good_xdd@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      8 个月前

      No, it’s correct - say your password gets leaked across thousands of passwords. A hacker will try to crack all of them with a program that guesses them once, which as the image suggests defeats these types of programs

  • normalexit@lemmy.world
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    8 个月前

    This is a really interesting idea, but a password manager would throw a wrench in it.

    I’d assume my password was invalidated or stored incorrectly, so I’d reset, then I’d try to log in, wtf… this website blows.