If you have to run power to it, you might as well run some data as well. Never really the best idea to have mission critical equipment at the mercy of a congested wifi network.
Save some trouble and go with POE. A little more expense to setup, but you only have to run one wire and everything is permanently hardwired.
I’m hard pushing my family and friends to replace/install POE switches currently. Its a minor cost upgrade that will make my life so much easier
Heck yeah. In addition to POE, I’ve got a power line adapter setup to the NVR so that the cams are all hardwired to the modem/router combo. It’s fast enough for remote viewing in HD.
What system do you have and how many cameras. We are moving north and I wanted to get a POE system and am looking for recommendations. Obviously Costco has some options but they are going to be pretty basic and have iffy reviews.
These are 3 outdoor cameras I helped setup for my bestie. I’m pretty sure she went with a no name brand. The UI is the same UI you see in other basic NVR’s out there. It was likely an Amazon or Costco purchase. This was a few years ago, the details are a bit hazy. I helped setup the software on a non-PoE system and it looked exactly the same. I’m sorry I couldn’t be of much help…
A lot of the new systems can use battery powered cameras that are motion activated - they can last for a month+ on battery because they only turn fully on when they detect motion.
You’re right though - if it’s mission critical don’t rely on wireless.
Some of them even have solar panels as well. It’s very useful if you want to DYI installation without having to run cables all over the place (data and/or power).
This Wi-Fi jamming stuff does seem like a huge issue. I was actually considering wireless down the line, but maybe a system with proper wired connections would be better.
Power over Ethernet (PoE) requires one wire for both data and power. You also need a PoE network switch, or a “PoE injector” which is basically a power brick that adds power to the network cord.
There are also poe adapters that allow you to power a non poe device. Can be useful in many situations.
Yeah, that would definitely be the way to go. You still have to run the cables all over the place, whether it’s one or two. I totally get why people go with wireless.
Trash passive IR motion detection.
Have wireless setup, works really well. If they want it that bad they can have it while I’m gone or risk their life while I’m there.
If you don’t care about your stuff, why would your risk your life to risk their lives? Lol
If it were me, I wouldn’t be as worried if I wasn’t there to lose stuff. If I was there I would be concerned with violence against me or my family. Not concerned with stuff but very concerned with safety.
That’s fair, but the other comment made it sound like they’d want to confront/attack the intruder
Literally the wet dream of every gun owner.
Entering my house without permission while I’m there is a threat.
Yeah, if someone is nutty enough to come inside, they’re getting shot. I don’t live in a fortress, but you have to make the effort, and anyone making that effort probably doesn’t have my family’s well-being in mind.
I also had a bear wander in my giant dog door, so there’s that as well.
We’ve had armed break ins near my house. One house they tried to break in ended up unloading on the group. Got away but haven’t heard of any robberies in the area for the past 6 months.
Siri, turn off all lights and play one winged angel
The version from Advent Children, by preference.
there are some things about america that i will just never understand
Electricity is already wired throughout, you just need to get to the closest plug. You have to run ethernet the whole length and it has length limitations. It’s not trivial.
Isn’t there ethernet over power or something like that?
There is indeed ethernet over power and I have been using it for almost 2 decades to connect a desktop PC in a room to the router in a different room in the various places I lived in over the years.
It used to be only 20Mb/s way back in the beginning but nowadays (last I checked) 500Mb/s was common.
I keep expecting this stuff to just come integrated in devices that are supposed to be wired to mains and also need network access to move around lots of data but I have yet to found such option built-in on auch devices: ethernet over power support usually comes in as a just a wall socket plug that also has an ethernet socket.
That said, it works better if all plugs are on the same mains network with now breaker boxes in between since the high frequency signals needed to transport data at high speeds don’t travel through inductors that well. I’m not quite sure how big houses in the US are wired, but this might be a problem if the device is trying to send lots if data across and the device and the router are in different mains subnetworks.
If you’re in an apartment, is this like putting everything on the same switch? Could you snoop your neighbors traffic? How is that secured?
Those things need to be paired to be able to see each other’s data stream so I assume it’s encrypted.
Also there are almost certainly TWO big breaker boxes (one for each appartment) plus meters - all of which with coils, which filter out high frequency signals - between your network and your neighbours’, so your bandwidth is not going to be suffering from neighbours that are using a similar system, unlike with anything radio-based like Wi-Fi.
I actually suspect this is even better suited for appartments than for standalone dwellings when your objective is bandwidth, because the signal will basically stop at the breaker box so you don’t really interfere with each other whilst with Wi-Fi what stops interference is distance (and big thick walls or large metal surfaces) so appartment buildings are pretty nightmarish for it because everybody is so near everybody else.
My own personal experience with this is all in appartment buildings and I actually first tried it back in the day when everybody and their dog started getting Wi-Fi and routers had become smart enough to automatically search for a less constrained Wi-Fi channel on setup (before that they all just used a default channel, so for a few years manually reconfiguring my router to use a different channel other than default would put me in a clean area of the spectrum few neighbours used) because Wi-Fi bandwidth by then had become was so bad whenliving in an appartment because of ther being so many people with their own networks in such close proximity.
Solar/battery cameras.
Doorbell cameras are tricky there. They’re designed for the lowest common denominator and expect you to use the existing wiring for power, but nothing else. No PoE connections for that.
My other cameras are PoE, though. Madness not to.
I use a reolink poe doorbell camera. It’s a bitch to replace your doorbell wire with Ethernet but it’s really worth it for the zero lag and camera still working during a power outage because my server is on a UPS. plus the wires can be used for a traditional doorbell if I sell the house, I just pick a pair and power them.
Just because they are popular and cheaper doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
See also: Bathtub inserts, countertop veneers, cheap EIFS stucco, overlay roofing, etc.
It’s been echod several times in this thread already but:
Wireless and security are oil and water. They do not mix. This goes byond wifi. If your security system has wireless sensors (door, window, motion) - you aren’t secure. Please do not buy smart locks.
Wireless cameras are not security - they are a convenience. A convenience for checking on the kids in the back or seeing if that package got delivered.
If it’s not wired and powered it is at best a scarecrow and at worse an indicator that you have money and you feel secure.
Smart locks are fine. Your door isn’t particularly secure with a regular lock. If they want in enough to bring tech, they are coming in anyway.
I don’t disagree with that. If someone wants in they’re coming in. 100% agreed. The trick is making your self less of an easy target and cutting down on easy ins.
My statement was pretty generic as there is a lot of nuance to locks and security. My concern lies mostly with the fact that you rarely have a suitable blending of the two technologies. Either a lock company buying a kit or an electronics company buying bulk locks. Or a company that does neither and is looking for another thing to peddle on Amazon.
Some of these locks have very poorly positioned relays. You can unlock them with a magnet. Others can be actuated using a simple emf generator. Ones with passcodes can be read with consumer grade ir sensors or determined by wear and fingerprints.
Reducing attack vectors is always preferred. But it is absolutely up to the end user where their balance between convenience and security lies.
A good deadbolt and key while average is still superior as it is only 3ish attack vectors: pick or impression, destruction of door/lock, and the trusty rock:
Most doors have poorly placed windows with standard glass in or next to them.
They busted the door off the hinges when they broke into my house once. One of your doors is an open in door… those are kick in doors as the guy was telling me when he replaced mine.
Smart locks are worse. They have all the insecurity of a regular lock, plus more methods of insecurity, plus more failure modes that will shut you out of your house.
Ehh, they sell models with no keyhole now. At least youre trading risks at that point.
Or in my case, the entire front door is made of glass…
Here in belgium our doors sacrifice everything in the name of marginally more security: fire safety, failure modes & maintainability, convenience, and protection from user error.
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Each modern door has 2+ deadbolts + hooks, many times a strike plate that is a bit bit more crowbar resistant, etc… but the mechanism is all tied to the handle so you can’t lock the door if the handle sticks because of lack of maintenance or -10C weather. This also is about 1500€ to replace if you break it trying to lock your door when it is sticking.
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Many doors have no front handle, so if you leave your keys inside (even if you are just running to get the mail), you are locked out. If someone leaves the keys on the inside of the eurocylinder, you can’t unlock it from the outside unless you bump the keys out which isn’t too easy for someone who only has a key.
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Finally, almost no doors nowadays have a deadbolt dials on the inside, so you have to lock it from inside with keys. This means that both someone who steals a key can lock you inside (see point 2) and also it is a huge fire hazard because you can’t open the door from the inside without a key. You either have to hope that you aren’t too blind and dazed from smoke during a fire to find the keys, get them in the lock, and get outside, or leave the keys in the lock and completely negate the security benefit of having no deadbolt dial + the added inconvenience of another person living there unable to get inside if they come home later.
Then, on my door and many other modern doors here the security that they sacrifice so much functionality for is negated in any case because there is a 60x180cm double glass pane that they can simply break through. It is literally the worst system I have ever come across lol
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Most smartlocks have a bypass lock for power cuts etc. that is shockingly easy to pick.
Regardless of how easy they are you pick, every house has giant holes cut in the walls with nothing but a couple panes of glass separating the inside from the outside.
Do you mean windows?
Time to put linux in my walls
Those are just dumb.
I have a smart lock that is just on the inside, there is nothing outside to indicate a smart lock.
Yes, someone could hack into my home assistant and open the door, but with that level of skill they would be earning 6 figures in a red team somewhere, not stealing my raspberry Pis and IKEA furniture…
isn’t that the equivalent to having an unlock button on your front door.
Most regular door locks are easy to pick.
there was show hosted by reformed burglars. One of the things they look for was expensive things in the front yards, being in planned community with few roads going into or out of. To get past home camera they wore hats and kept looking down, and just showed up in a lawn care or pool cleaning van.
And if you look at police report and court cases, do these camera make catching thieves more likely? No they don’t
I don’t love somewhere where people dress up as Scooby Doo villains to break into houses, I live in a place where people go house to house at 1 am and try door handles on cars and garages. A motion light and a camera does more to stop those people than anything else.
If someone wants to stage an organized heist, then yea, my camera isn’t doing shit, but neither are my door locks, or a bolted down safe. At that point it is just an insurance game.
if they have a wifi jammer they have spray paint
Low tech solution sure - you need to walk up to the camera and would need the location of any cameras that would potentially catch you as you scooter around tagging the cameras. Advantage is you are 100 sure the cam can’t see you.
Deauth attacks work very well and don’t require you to nuke all of the wireless space.
There’s a variety of different attacks. Admittedly destroying the camera is more or less a sure thing hah.
Many cameras record to a SD card, deauth won’t do much.
Sure there may be a hard copy but that will only have value after the crime is committed. Deauth / jamming will prevent the more meaningful things like proximity alerts and notifications from informing the user (or security system) which could lead to intervention.
I’ve always viewed camera storage as a fallback in the event something fails. Don’t get me wrong I think redundancy is great and it’s a fine feature. It has value - just less so in this particular case.
You could set up an alert for “hey, all my security cameras just misteriously disconnected”…
Not advocating for wireless security solutions, just saying it’s not so hopeless.
That would definitely be a good approach if you were stuck with the wireless option. Im sure some software may address those disconnections in just the way you describe.
My responses have been looking at the technology broadly - in the way I might if someone asked me for my opinion prior to investing in gear. People frequently overestimate the effort required to achieve a bypass of a security device. So my goal was to provide some core knowledge.
I do like the suggestion though- it may help somone improve their own existing setup 👍
Here in belgium it is illegal to have hidden security cameras. You also have to put up a visible sign if you have them.
Location of the cameras here is easy lol
Sorry for being that guy but if possible you should always refrain from using Wifi for applications in production, safety and security. Too many known and unknown vectors to its reliability.
But yea, I get it. Most people don’t know the details and on the overall market most affordable devices and services for security systems are some semi-“smart” products which are simple to set up. The extra work and cost that come with professional equipment aren’t really appreciated, eapecially by those who don’t know any better.
I think the most primary thing of all is that, most people don’t have the means to run Ethernet cables to places that typical cameras are installed (doorbells and garage floodlights)
It’s a catch 22 though. Ok one hand, every single person in my neighborhood has multiple cameras on their property now and even when I lived in an apartment complex, everyone had a camera at their doorbell, but they all are usually ring or some other subscription based, phone home type.
Do WiFi cameras present a new attack vector, yea for sure. Is having a WiFi camera that could be disabled better than not having a camera at all (what was the reality 5 years ago), hard to say.
This is exactly why the old fashioned Analog installations cost more to begin with: They’re very secure and more difficult to disable.
Of course, the number 1 method to avoid robbery is to simply make yourself an unappealing target: no FB/Instagram stories, door that looks more solid than it is, padlocks, signage warning of dogs/firearms (even if you don’t have either). Keep your equipment, cars, or boats inside or covered. Etc. Even just a floodlight that detects motion at night and makes a beep beep sound can scare off most kids and crackheads. If you live in an apartment, put some broken furniture on your patio and people will think you’re poor.
It seems like Wifi Cams and the little signs/stickers they come with are exactly the opposite: “I HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE THAT YOU WANT BUT HAVEN’T SECURED IT PROPERLY.”
That’s an interesting take, and I think I might agree with you.
Solid-looking boring lock, everything looking like it would last decades, looks like someone who sorted the security confidently.
Plastic looking wifi cameras everywhere have a “curtain twitchy granny” vibe.You’re right that you should try to make yourself a less appealing target for thrives, but some of your methods don’t really hold up to scrutiny. Beeping motion sensor lights and secure locks and doors are great ideas. They will absolutely deter casual thrives and addicts.
Advertising that you have guns is just advertising that you have something to steal that is valuable, easy to sell, and easy to carry.
Warning signs for dogs aren’t much better. If you don’t have a dog, that will usually become obvious to anyone close enough to read the sign. If you do have a dog, then the sign is just an invitation to have them murdered the next time you have to interact with police at home. It will also expose you to liability should any trespasser be injured by that dog. Yeah, even the person robbing you, but also children, other pets, and well meaning innocent people just doing their jobs (and not breaking the law by entering your property without permission) like meter readers, mailmen, land surveyors, emergency response, etc. When I see a dog warning sign, to me it just says that a dumb asshole abusing a dog lives here.
Broken furniture sounds clever, but that just says trashy, not poor. Actual poor people take better care of their shit. HOAs would also limit the places you could actually do this without fines in the suburbs. Broken outdoor furniture is as common as weeds in more rural areas.
WiFi Cams just mean that you can afford Internet. EVERYBODY has WiFi cameras. They are ridiculously cheap to buy and easy to install. Cameras (WiFi or not) aren’t a great deterent anyway.
I feel like the risk/return on firearms isn’t great for breaking into homes at night, but if it were in an unattended vehicle then that’s another story.
You don’t actually have to own a dog, and having signage doesn’t indicate abuse in any case.
Your confusing opinion and facts. My opinion is not fact (regarding dog warning signs) and I never said it was. Your feelings also are not fact.
There is no confusion here, friend. Our opinions conflict, that is all.
oh, sweet, sweet ethernet. how I love you.
As long as it’s not 100mbps ethernet on unshielded cable, that’s the absolute worst for RFI.
then don’t do that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
As long as it’s not two children with cups attached to a shoestring, that’s the absolute worst.
Sure, but still harder to do than wifi
The issue with 100mbps ethernet is than it interferes with HF and VHF radio.
It would certainly be possible for radio to interfere with ethernet, but I’ve never knocked mine out even with 100 watts.
Sure, but the topic is “rf interference of your camera feeds”
You CAN interfere with Ethernet, but it’s much harder to do, as evidenced by your 100 watts
Internet-of-Thieves devices.
I’ve been saying this since the Nest and other similar bullshit came out. In the electronic security industry, we’ve been installing hardwired PoE cams for over a decade and a half. High resolution, high bandwidth, no batteries or separate power adapters, centrally managed LOCAL video storage. And not vulnerable to RF jamming/hacking. Stop buying the shitty Harry Homeowner equipment.
In the 80s and 90s stores used to put up signs that read “monitored by CLOSED CIRCUIT television” because even back then they didn’t trust wireless and they made sure you knew it wasn’t.
And that’s why hardlining is still by far the best option available.
- Hardlined cameras need to be physically accessed and the cables snipped in order to disrupt them, and most cameras offering hardlining now feed Ethernet through their bases, providing additional protection.
- Most sub-20 camera systems can run for up to an hour or two on a 500VA UPS, and up to a week or more with PowerWall backups, defeating intentional power outages.
- A fully airgapped system can defeat any sort of direct Internet intrusion.
- Shielded Ethernet can help protect from crosstalk attacks provided they are correctly grounded with the appropriate switches.
- Hardware auth between cameras and the DVR can help defend against direct attacks via an unplugged cable or an open wall jack, in that only approved hardware can make the needed connections with either end.
- Encrypted communications between cameras and DVR can enhance the security of data across the wire.
- A brace of identical dummy cameras - similarly powered, if they have external indicators - alongside real ones will waste the time and effort of attackers who conduct physical attacks, while keeping recording-infrastructure needs to a minimum.
- Bonus if identical but “dark” Ethernet is similarly spoofed throughout the building, as not only will it confuse physical attackers, but it’ll also be already in-place for future communications-infrastructure improvements.
- DVR needs to be in a secured location, ideally fireproof. In combination with № 7 and № 8, a dummy DVR (with live screens showing actual content) can exist elsewhere to distract any physical attackers.
Sure, this list isn’t 100% coverage, but it gets you nearly there with a minimum of effort.
You have some interesting ideas about what a minimum of effort looks like
If you are in the middle of a frame-off gut of a home, as I currently am, much of this is trivial to implement.
Even my parent’s 1978 home, with it’s drop ceiling in the basement, would not make most of this all that much more difficult.
If you are in the middle of a frame-off gut of a home, as I currently am, much of this is trivial to implement.
A notoriously low-effort endeavor in itself.
“It’s doable with a minimum of effort as long as you have your house gutted down to the foundations” isn’t exactly the shining defense of “a minimum of effort” that I expected to read
Go in your attic for 20 minutes. Throw some Ethernet around. You don’t even have to plug all of it in lol
I had to buy almost $500 of mdf to get around my attic well enough to pull cable for backhaul. It’s not as easy as you make it sound in a lot of cases.
You only need 2 pieces and some creativity.
Not all attics are that accessible. Mine is basically an above-house crawlspace full of insulation such that you need a mask.
It’s 2024, do you not have a mask
No, I’ve used them all up in the last 3 years
Requires a different type of mask, but yes, I have many masks of different types.
minimum of effort
yeah, nah, they can just have my stuff.
as tech becomes cheaper and easier to acquire
I didn’t know an improperly sealed microwave oven was such a difficult thing to get ones hands on.
I think they’re talking about it from the other end: more cheap tech like wifi security cameras means more people are vulnerable to “an improperly sealed microwave”
No. They’re talking about the jammers getting cheap and easy to get. Cheap wifi security cameras have been a thing for over a decade now. Then got stupid dirt cheap in 2017 when wyze started selling one for $20.
My work has those. Very versatile. Works with door open AND closed!
no one likes roasted nuts
More of a boil situation. Nothing’s getting golden brown and delicious in this scenario.
2.4GHz wifi is vulnerable to even lower power attacks: Just spamming de-auth packets is enough to render a network useless.
They’re not, but a little cumbersome to carry around and find power on a heist.
There are loads of little pocket sized battery powered jammers available now.
Wifi jamming is an easy thing to do, as the whole 2.4GHz band works on the assumption that everyone is nice to each other. One non-cooperative device, and everything in that band goes down: Wifi, BT, Garage door openers, Car key fobs…
Running wires is expensive. That’s why most people opt for wireless, and on top of that, the convenience systems like Ring offer with their app, no NVR/DVR, none of the typical security system hardware cluttering things up.
Running ethernet is pretty cheap
Depends on where and how far. Once youre trenching and cutting into your walls, it’s only cheap if youre spending your time.
No one should ever need to cut into your walls. A good tech will run down from attic or up from crawl space. The most you should ever have is a new plate where a box may be placed. If someone is cutting frivolously into your walls they should be fired. Hopefully they had contractors insurance too. Probably not if they were that incompetent.
That’s a bit of a blanket statement. It depends on the house and where you want the cable to go.
Yep. With the solid walls I have, if you’re not chasing into the plaster/brick, you’re putting trunking on the outside (which looks pretty awful, imho).
cries in flat roof and slab foundation
I’ve run mine under the floorboards. CAT6e flat-band cables with multiple redundant outlets. Not a great solution in a finished house, but when redoing the floors, it’s great. From room to room just drill through the wall below the floor level and pop the cable through. I’ve crimped mine myself so the hole is literally tiny, but even for a regular connector you don’t need all that big a hole.
In case I ever need to replace them, I hope I’ll be able to attach a new one to the old cable and just pull it through slowly.
The cost of the cable maybe, not the cost of all the ancillary work.
Most people have or want cameras in places where it won’t be particularly easy to run wires, like door frames for door bells, and outside walls with insulation and various utilities in the way.
Other people live where they can’t do it at all (an apartment)
I think he meant relative cost (including time)
I really like those “Protected by Xfinity/AT&T” signs in the windows.
Tells me what wire to cut.
/s
Another reason to buy PoE cameras.
As a gamer, I can only wonder what Path of Exile has to do with this. What does PoE stand for here?
Power-over-Ethernet
The simple solution here is to record to flash when wifi dies. Yes wired stuff is nice but half of these are consumer installed.
certainly record to flash, but you need to have notifications when the camera can’t be contacted/when storage would be theoretically getting full
that does open you up a little though: recording on device means the attacker can just destroy/steal the camera which is pretty easy because they, by definition pretty much, are in a place that’s trivial for an attacker to access
Looks like my expensive ass setup was worth it after all now doesn’t it?
The picture shows a bullet cam, and PoE is readily available.
Wired network doorbell cameras are much harder to find, and they are double the cost
